March 2012 - colorsync-users

Update: Are Canon IPF printers any reliable?
by Roger Breton 10 Jan '13

10 Jan '13

Warm thanks' to everyone that responded on and off-list. I got some wonderful insights. I still have not made my mind yet but, as I am checking prices today -- I hate to acknowledge that money plays an important part of my decision --, but I see 24" Epson printers that are selling at bargain prices, way below Canon's and HP's :( See here: http://www.vistek.ca/results/ProPhotoPrinters/printers-inkjet-wide%20carr/Wi de-Carriage.aspx According to this page (those of you in the US can probably find even better deals than this), I can have a 7900 for $2600 cdn while the 4900 is selling for almost $100 cdn more? Something's fishy because similar carriage width Canon's and HP's will run me $1000 to $1500 more? Economics.... / Roger

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iPad vs. iPad3 Color
by Rick Gordon 31 Mar '12

31 Mar '12

I am currently in the finishing stages of a new fixed-layout image-heavy ebook for iBooks. I have an first-generation iPad, and on that, I'm considering final conversion of images (currently sRGB) to iPad.icc<http://bit.ly/xEI6nH>. But I'm wondering if I may create more problems when viewing on a New iPad (iPad 3). Do you have any solid info or well-educated guesses as to this, and to iBooks's handling of embedded profiles? Thanks. -- ___________________________________________________ RICK GORDON EMERALD VALLEY GRAPHICS AND CONSULTING ___________________________________________________ WWW: http://www.shelterpub.com

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Re: Comparing color performance on Displays
by Kamil Tresnak 31 Mar '12

31 Mar '12

Hi Mike, i wrote "good middle class" :) OK, OK, "well done, good job" was definitely more appropriate, i was just little bit disputing "best on the planet". IMO, technically speaking, depends on what we measure. If you measure little bar (Fogra), it is no matter if you get average 1,1 or 0.90, particulary with regard to instrument precision. But if you measure big target (ECI), improving in both values, average and max, is a bit more important. But i agree with your statement about printer drifts - and there are many others practical issues which affects proof precision far more, than few tenths of deltaE. Best regards, Kamil >I haven't seen the blog in question, but your characterization of 1.05/3.10 as "middle class" for a proofing system is not correct, as anyone who installs these systems >knows (and Dan is among this group). In fact, in general, only systems that have some sort of iterative "tuning" of output profiles (e.g., GMG, ORIS, XF can do better than >this immediately after calibration, and even then the improvement is vanishingly slight and the ultra-low numbers rise very quickly as the printer drifts in regular use. >Mike > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:09:48 +0200 > From: Kamil Tresnak <email@hidden> > To: colorsync-users <email@hidden> > Subject: Re: Comparing color performance on Displays > Message-ID: <email@hidden> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > Dan: > > Maybe i get you wrong, but number you are posted are "good middle class" rather than best on the planet, particulary if we are talking about "proofing systems" in general .... > > Quote form your blog: > "As you see here the results are VERY impressive with the overall average at 1.05 dE and the maximum at 3.10 dE. In case you know have no reference about dE values - these are as good if not better than any proofing system on the planet!" > > Best, > > Kamil Tresnak > > >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 16:03:39 -0400 >> From: Dan Gillespie <email@hidden> >> To: email@hidden >> Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 9, Issue 54 >> Message-ID: <email@hidden> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Tod, >> >> You can do this in the new i1Profiler software. You can compare to the 24 ColorChecker values or to printing standards/specifications like GRACoL or Fogra. You can read more in the blog I wrote about it here: http://everydaycolormanagement.blogspot.com/2012/01/eizo-vs-nec-monitor-cal…. >> >> Hope this helps, >> >> Dan Gillespie >> 717.475.9007 >> Toll Free 1.877.COL-RMGT >> email@hidden >> www.colormanagement.com | www.colormanagementgroup.com

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Re: Comparing color performance on Displays (Kamil Tresnak)
by Mike Strickler 31 Mar '12

31 Mar '12

I haven't seen the blog in question, but your characterization of 1.05/3.10 as "middle class" for a proofing system is not correct, as anyone who installs these systems knows (and Dan is among this group). In fact, in general, only systems that have some sort of iterative "tuning" of output profiles (e.g., GMG, ORIS, XF can do better than this immediately after calibration, and even then the improvement is vanishingly slight and the ultra-low numbers rise very quickly as the printer drifts in regular use. Mike > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:09:48 +0200 > From: Kamil Tresnak <kamil.tresnak(a)centrum.cz> > To: colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> > Subject: Re: Comparing color performance on Displays > Message-ID: <20120331190948.91E8A082(a)centrum.cz> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > Dan: > > Maybe i get you wrong, but number you are posted are "good middle class" rather than best on the planet, particulary if we are talking about "proofing systems" in general .... > > Quote form your blog: > "As you see here the results are VERY impressive with the overall average at 1.05 dE and the maximum at 3.10 dE. In case you know have no reference about dE values - these are as good if not better than any proofing system on the planet!" > > Best, > > Kamil Tresnak > > >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 16:03:39 -0400 >> From: Dan Gillespie <dgillespie(a)colorgeek.com> >> To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >> Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 9, Issue 54 >> Message-ID: <0DC8CEB6-FC3A-4493-B1BE-61D6FF57CF57(a)colorgeek.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Tod, >> >> You can do this in the new i1Profiler software. You can compare to the 24 ColorChecker values or to printing standards/specifications like GRACoL or Fogra. You can read more in the blog I wrote about it here: http://everydaycolormanagement.blogspot.com/2012/01/eizo-vs-nec-monitor-cal…. >> >> Hope this helps, >> >> Dan Gillespie >> 717.475.9007 >> Toll Free 1.877.COL-RMGT >> dan(a)colormanagement.com >> www.colormanagement.com | www.colormanagementgroup.com >>

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Re: Comparing color performance on Displays
by Kamil Tresnak 31 Mar '12

31 Mar '12

Dan: Maybe i get you wrong, but number you are posted are "good middle class" rather than best on the planet, particulary if we are talking about "proofing systems" in general .... Quote form your blog: "As you see here the results are VERY impressive with the overall average at 1.05 dE and the maximum at 3.10 dE. In case you know have no reference about dE values - these are as good if not better than any proofing system on the planet!" Best, Kamil Tresnak > >Message: 2 >Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 16:03:39 -0400 >From: Dan Gillespie <dgillespie(a)colorgeek.com> >To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 9, Issue 54 >Message-ID: <0DC8CEB6-FC3A-4493-B1BE-61D6FF57CF57(a)colorgeek.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Tod, > >You can do this in the new i1Profiler software. You can compare to the 24 ColorChecker values or to printing standards/specifications like GRACoL or Fogra. You can read more in the blog I wrote about it here: http://everydaycolormanagement.blogspot.com/2012/01/eizo-vs-nec-monitor-cal…. > >Hope this helps, > >Dan Gillespie >717.475.9007 >Toll Free 1.877.COL-RMGT >dan(a)colormanagement.com >www.colormanagement.com | www.colormanagementgroup.com >

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Re: Comparing color performance on Displays
by Kamil Tresnak 31 Mar '12

31 Mar '12

Tod: you provided us with too little info. Maybe you simply profile your display to unnecessarily high luminance? What CIELAB numbers you are getting? What target values for monitor calibration you are using? For example, if you are using values around 140 cd, no wonder if values do not match. Some difference is inevitable, but if you not provide numbers, we cant judge. Regards Kamil Tresnak >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:30:09 -0400 >> From: Hugo Caceres <hcaceres(a)gwmail.gwu.edu> >> To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >> Subject: Comparing color performance on Displays >> Message-ID: >> <CAMr1useOkzeAo_e-YhJF9_FxYb5DgqdF2Qwj9HRD1iNJ+h4avA(a)mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Hello, >> >> I was curious about how one can find an optimal standard set of colors in >> CIELAB to compare the performance of different liquid crystal displays to. >> For example, if I wanted to know how far the color reproduction of my >> display is to that of a defined set of colors, then I would measure the >> CIELAB of the 24 Gretagmacbeth colorchecker on the display and compare it >> to the known CIELAB values in the card. This will give me a Delta-E I can >> use to determine the difference. The problem is the CIELAB values of the >> display have very high luminance as opposed to the CIELAB values on the >> colorchecker. Does anyone know a why one can compare the colors of an LCD >> to a well-defined base that is reflective? >> >> Regards, >> Tod Canete ______________________________________________________________ > Od: colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com > Komu: <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> > Datum: 30.03.2012 21:07 > Předmět: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 9, Issue 55 > >Send Colorsync-users mailing list submissions to > colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com > >You can reach the person managing the list at > colorsync-users-owner(a)lists.apple.com > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of Colorsync-users digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Aperture 3 import color issues (davidbmoore) > 2. Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 9, Issue 54 (Dan Gillespie) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:47:02 -0700 >From: davidbmoore <dmoore10(a)cox.net> >To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >Subject: Aperture 3 import color issues >Message-ID: <7C81C657-09EA-46B5-8598-A7491509268E(a)cox.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >Sorry if this has been covered……please point me to the correct posts. > >Aperture imports a tif Adobe98 file and hoses the colors. Example: a fill of (72, 182, 70) in an A98 file imports into AP3 with a major color change. If I take that same file and convert it in PS to sRGB then import that to AP3 the colors basically are the same as the non imported A98 file in PS. Some think things changed when AP3 came out and others think it is a Lion issue. I think Colorsync is the color engine for Aperture… How can color issues happen in an Apple product? Thanks for all helpful suggestions. DAvid > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 16:03:39 -0400 >From: Dan Gillespie <dgillespie(a)colorgeek.com> >To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 9, Issue 54 >Message-ID: <0DC8CEB6-FC3A-4493-B1BE-61D6FF57CF57(a)colorgeek.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Tod, > >You can do this in the new i1Profiler software. You can compare to the 24 ColorChecker values or to printing standards/specifications like GRACoL or Fogra. You can read more in the blog I wrote about it here: http://everydaycolormanagement.blogspot.com/2012/01/eizo-vs-nec-monitor-cal…. > >Hope this helps, > >Dan Gillespie >717.475.9007 >Toll Free 1.877.COL-RMGT >dan(a)colormanagement.com >www.colormanagement.com | www.colormanagementgroup.com > >On Mar 29, 2012, at 3:00 PM, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com wrote: > >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:30:09 -0400 >> From: Hugo Caceres <hcaceres(a)gwmail.gwu.edu> >> To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >> Subject: Comparing color performance on Displays >> Message-ID: >> <CAMr1useOkzeAo_e-YhJF9_FxYb5DgqdF2Qwj9HRD1iNJ+h4avA(a)mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Hello, >> >> I was curious about how one can find an optimal standard set of colors in >> CIELAB to compare the performance of different liquid crystal displays to. >> For example, if I wanted to know how far the color reproduction of my >> display is to that of a defined set of colors, then I would measure the >> CIELAB of the 24 Gretagmacbeth colorchecker on the display and compare it >> to the known CIELAB values in the card. This will give me a Delta-E I can >> use to determine the difference. The problem is the CIELAB values of the >> display have very high luminance as opposed to the CIELAB values on the >> colorchecker. Does anyone know a why one can compare the colors of an LCD >> to a well-defined base that is reflective? >> >> Regards, >> Tod Canete > > >On Mar 29, 2012, at 3:00 PM, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com wrote: > >> Send Colorsync-users mailing list submissions to >> colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> colorsync-users-owner(a)lists.apple.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Colorsync-users digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Comparing color performance on Displays (Hugo Caceres) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:30:09 -0400 >> From: Hugo Caceres <hcaceres(a)gwmail.gwu.edu> >> To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >> Subject: Comparing color performance on Displays >> Message-ID: >> <CAMr1useOkzeAo_e-YhJF9_FxYb5DgqdF2Qwj9HRD1iNJ+h4avA(a)mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Hello, >> >> I was curious about how one can find an optimal standard set of colors in >> CIELAB to compare the performance of different liquid crystal displays to. >> For example, if I wanted to know how far the color reproduction of my >> display is to that of a defined set of colors, then I would measure the >> CIELAB of the 24 Gretagmacbeth colorchecker on the display and compare it >> to the known CIELAB values in the card. This will give me a Delta-E I can >> use to determine the difference. The problem is the CIELAB values of the >> display have very high luminance as opposed to the CIELAB values on the >> colorchecker. Does anyone know a why one can compare the colors of an LCD >> to a well-defined base that is reflective? >> >> Regards, >> Tod Canete >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Colorsync-users mailing list >> Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users >> >> End of Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 9, Issue 54 >> ********************************************** >> > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Colorsync-users mailing list >Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users > >End of Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 9, Issue 55 >********************************************** >

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Re: i1 Profiler problem with ColorShop
by Kamil Tresnak 31 Mar '12

31 Mar '12

Agree, this was a smart functionality, and ColorShop was packed with some others great tools ... btw, exactly same situation is with profile editing - ColorShop have simple and usable profile editing tools, but with profiles we make now with new i1 profile these tools are doing nothing - any change has no effect. Seems little bit strange, as i suppose that these tools must work with any standard ICC profile ... will reinstall ColorShop next week to see if there is no problem on my side, just because curious what happened here. Any idea from X-Rite? :) All the best Kamil ______________________________________________________________ > Od: tyler(a)tylerboley.com > Komu: Scott Martin <scott(a)on-sight.com> > Datum: 27.03.2012 22:21 > Předmět: Re: i1 Profiler problem with ColorShop > > CC: "colorsync-users" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> >I recall the ColorShop grayscale profile ability, built from the same as >the color profile.

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i1 Profiler problem with ColorShop
by Kamil Tresnak 31 Mar '12

31 Mar '12

Dear all, client of mine used to make gray profiles deriving them via ColorShop from RGB profiles (which was created in Color Elite SW with X-rite Pulse before). Now, after upgrade to i1 and i1 Profiler (v1.2.0), this functionality is gone. During conversion, ColorShop create two files, one of them is ICC profile, but still producing color output, no gray. It is no matter if we generate v2 or v4 ICC profile in i1 Profiler. I am pretty sure, that we must find another solution (goodbye old gold times), but just curious - any idea what changes, where is the catch? Is there another ColorShop user which can repeat our process and confirm that this is not just our problem? Original RGB profile generated on i1 Profiler on Windows, ColorShop is running on Mac. Any input will be very appreciated, Thanks, all the best Kamil Tresnak

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Re: Aperture 3 import color issues
by grantsymon_a＠mac.com 30 Mar '12

30 Mar '12

DavidBMoore wrote : > Sorry if this has been covered……please point me to the correct posts. > > Aperture imports a tif Adobe98 file and hoses the colors. Example: a fill of (72, 182, 70) in an A98 file imports into AP3 with a major color change. If I take that same file and convert it in PS to sRGB then import that to AP3 the colors basically are the same as the non imported A98 file in PS. Some think things changed when AP3 came out and others think it is a Lion issue. I think Colorsync is the color engine for Aperture… How can color issues happen in an Apple product? Thanks for all helpful suggestions. DAvid David, just to be clear, since you're sort of quoting my BR on this. The colours do change when you import an sRGB file, but it's hard to see, visually, without a wide-gamut monitor. People here will know what that means. Using the dropper in PS will show you those changes in numbers. Speaking as the person that has reported this bug 3 times (subsequent to various Aperture updates without a fix) I can confirm that it is NOT a 10.7 (Lion) issue. It is an Aperture 3 issue. It did not exist in Aperture 2 (even in Lion). Yes, it's a gigantic bug (data loss.) No, Apple have not fixed it since I reported it in June last year. If any list members would like to take a look, I posted a thread on Aperture Discussion last July ... which details the problem : Aperture Discussion Grant Symon

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Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 9, Issue 54
by Dan Gillespie 29 Mar '12

29 Mar '12

Tod, You can do this in the new i1Profiler software. You can compare to the 24 ColorChecker values or to printing standards/specifications like GRACoL or Fogra. You can read more in the blog I wrote about it here: http://everydaycolormanagement.blogspot.com/2012/01/eizo-vs-nec-monitor-cal…. Hope this helps, Dan Gillespie 717.475.9007 Toll Free 1.877.COL-RMGT dan(a)colormanagement.com www.colormanagement.com | www.colormanagementgroup.com On Mar 29, 2012, at 3:00 PM, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com wrote: > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:30:09 -0400 > From: Hugo Caceres <hcaceres(a)gwmail.gwu.edu> > To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > Subject: Comparing color performance on Displays > Message-ID: > <CAMr1useOkzeAo_e-YhJF9_FxYb5DgqdF2Qwj9HRD1iNJ+h4avA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hello, > > I was curious about how one can find an optimal standard set of colors in > CIELAB to compare the performance of different liquid crystal displays to. > For example, if I wanted to know how far the color reproduction of my > display is to that of a defined set of colors, then I would measure the > CIELAB of the 24 Gretagmacbeth colorchecker on the display and compare it > to the known CIELAB values in the card. This will give me a Delta-E I can > use to determine the difference. The problem is the CIELAB values of the > display have very high luminance as opposed to the CIELAB values on the > colorchecker. Does anyone know a why one can compare the colors of an LCD > to a well-defined base that is reflective? > > Regards, > Tod Canete On Mar 29, 2012, at 3:00 PM, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com wrote: > Send Colorsync-users mailing list submissions to > colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > colorsync-users-owner(a)lists.apple.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Colorsync-users digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Comparing color performance on Displays (Hugo Caceres) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:30:09 -0400 > From: Hugo Caceres <hcaceres(a)gwmail.gwu.edu> > To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > Subject: Comparing color performance on Displays > Message-ID: > <CAMr1useOkzeAo_e-YhJF9_FxYb5DgqdF2Qwj9HRD1iNJ+h4avA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hello, > > I was curious about how one can find an optimal standard set of colors in > CIELAB to compare the performance of different liquid crystal displays to. > For example, if I wanted to know how far the color reproduction of my > display is to that of a defined set of colors, then I would measure the > CIELAB of the 24 Gretagmacbeth colorchecker on the display and compare it > to the known CIELAB values in the card. This will give me a Delta-E I can > use to determine the difference. The problem is the CIELAB values of the > display have very high luminance as opposed to the CIELAB values on the > colorchecker. Does anyone know a why one can compare the colors of an LCD > to a well-defined base that is reflective? > > Regards, > Tod Canete > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Colorsync-users mailing list > Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users > > End of Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 9, Issue 54 > ********************************************** >

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