November 2013 - colorsync-users

Re: Light indicator band issues.
by Daniel Westcott 18 Nov '13

18 Nov '13

I believe Graeme is eluding to the fact that color temperature does not speak to speak distribution; so while D50 is a standard with a specific distribution and as such has a color temperature, one cannot make the inference (as it seems the language on the pantone has done) that because the temperature is 5000K the spectral distribution has any specific character. These test strips are useful to show clients when the lights in their office are inadequate for proofing purposes and can accomplish that task quite nicely. Most people do not understand that there is a difference but the seeming magic of these strips can quickly open the eyes of most clients as to why we insist on a light booth with a standardized light source for contact proofing. Cheers Daniel Perfect logic is meaningless without perfect perspective. Daniel Westcott daniel(a)westcott.us -------- Original message -------- From: Claas Bickeböller <lists(a)bickeboeller.name> Date: 11/18/2013 8:27 AM (GMT-07:00) To: ColorSync <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Light indicator band issues. Dear all, these indicators are good tools to warn you if you are in non D50 light. They are not suitable to determine if you have a good D50 simulator. If you do not see or only barely visible differences it _could_ be that you have a good D50 simulation. If you see big differences between the metameric pairs you definitely do not have a suitable D50 simulation. The second application is what these strips are meant for, the first not. Best regards Claas Am 18.11.2013 um 14:04 schrieb Mark Stegman <mark.stegman(a)gmail.com>: > Graeme, > > You are teasing us. Please elaborate. I had the same 'ambitions' as Axel but only mirrored his disappointment. > > What exactly is 'sufficient' to achieve a match with a metameric pair? > > If these things are so inadequate why does UGRA/FOGRA/GATF market them? > > Mark > > On 18/11/2013, at 11:32 PM, Graeme Gill <graeme2(a)argyllcms.com> wrote: > >> Axel Robert wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I experience some problems with different light indicators like : >>> >>> PANTONE® LIGHTING INDICATOR Stickers >>> >>> PIA/GATF RHEM Light Indicator >>> >>> Ugra/Fogra light indicator >> >> Those indicators seem incredibly vague in what they are supposed to do, >> and under what conditions they "work". >> >> The Pantone indicator talks about "being viewed under a 5000K (degrees Kelvin) >> standard light source.", and the others use similar terminology, >> but this is nonsense - such indicators depend on the colors being visual >> metamers under a certain light _spectrum_. Merely being the right color >> temperature is not sufficient to guarantee a match. >> >> Graeme Gill. > > Mark > >> This email sent to mark.stegman(a)gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/lists%40bickeboelle… > > This email sent to lists(a)bickeboeller.name _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/daniel%40westcott.us This email sent to daniel(a)westcott.us

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Suggestions for a color accurate image browser
by Peter Miles 18 Nov '13

18 Nov '13

I am wanting suggestions for an image browser that can view thumbnails of ProPhoto PSD files and match the Photoshop CS5.1 view. I like using Adobe Bridge for image browsing, but the sRGB versions of the ProPhoto images are just too different for the thumbnails I am viewing to be of any use to me. 1 -Adobe Bridge CS5.1 Only Displays sRGB thumbnails of the ProPhoto images. (same deal with Bridge CS6 apparently) 2- Finder (10.6.8) Displays PSD files differently than either bridge or Photoshop CS5.1 3 - iPhoto Displays thumbnails matching Adobe Bridge. (guessing sRGB thumbnail thing again) Appreciate any suggestions / ideas around this. Thanks Peter Miles Mac Pro, OS 10.6.8, Eizo, color managed work station

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Re: Color Checker Age
by Lars Borg 05 Nov '13

05 Nov '13

A fun observation: My calibration software can show me the diff between the idealized chart and a real chart. It reveals nicks scratches dust stains thumb prints uneven lighting. You can do the same in Photoshop. These contaminants can have a huge impact on the measured color and need be compensated for. Not sure these effects are worse than aging. When I tell partners they need a better chart they often say they have none. :-( Take good care of your charts! Lars

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Five color options
by Randy Zaucha 05 Nov '13

05 Nov '13

I'm profiling a CMYK, lm, lc and Orange printer with an Onyx Rip, plus I also have i1 Profiler. Both the Rip and i1 Profiler support 5 color schemes. The Rip has profile making ability too. Do I set the Rip as CMYK+O and supply a CMYKO profile with i1 profiler? Do I set the as CMYK+O and supply a standard CMYK profile from i1 profiler? Do I set the Rip to CMYK+O and use the Onyx profile generation for a CMYK profile? Do I set the Rip for CMYK and install a CMYKO profile? I'd like to optimize the use of the Orange ink for gamut expansion of course. Any ideas on the best way to go? If I create the CMYKO profile using i1 Profiler, then I should measure a solid Orange ink patch on my media (canvas) and enter that into i1 Profiler. Should I enter the Lab values of an Orange patch that has the highest saturation I can print or highest density? Thanks, Randy Zaucha

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Color Checker Age
by Marc Sitkin 04 Nov '13

04 Nov '13

Hi- I'm using a rather old color checker and RPP64 for profiling, and am getting peak errors of deltaE 11, and average errors of over 4. Is it possible this is related to the age of the target, and if so, how long should one be kept before replacing? Thanks -- Marc Sitkin digitalmomentum, llc. 1700 NW 15th Ave Suite 360 Pompano Beach, FL 33069 954-973-2670 phone 888-880-5851 web site: www.digitalmomentum.com marcsitkinphotography.com wideandnarrow.tumblr.com

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Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? (Dimitri Katsaros)
by Nagy Péter 03 Nov '13

03 Nov '13

Hi Dimitri, having 14-bit internal resolution makes the calibration much more precise. The color temperature, the gray balance (throughout the whole gradation range) and the gamma can be adjusted much more perfectly. So your 8-bit data will look better on those displays, which employ 14-bit internal LUTs. Beside that, it’s possible that they use some kind of dithering, ‘upsampling’ the 8-bit data on-the-fly, to be more even, banding-free on the 14-bit screen. On the other hand, even on an RGB backlight display (where the actual light source can be adjusted to achieve a certain color temperature) you won’t have the full 14-bit resolution available. On CCFL backlight units, you will loose around 2 bits from the internal resolution, just because of the calibration. This is why true hardware calibration always started at 10-bits internal. That said, if you use a HDMI interface (which pumps out 10-bit color data per channel) to connect to your 14-bit screen, work with 16-bit images in Photoshop, then you did the absolute maximum toward image display precision. Regards, Peter

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Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 229
by Dimitri Katsaros 03 Nov '13

03 Nov '13

@ Andrew Right, but with files coming in from, say, ACR at 16 bit, the banding will be in the display before it occurs in the file (being that the display operates at either 8- or 10-bit) My point is, wouldn't one be paying extra money for bit depth that doesn't get displayed due to OS X's limitations and therefore be wasting money? Or worse, get banding that isn't there even earlier because the wider gamut monitor requires a higher bit depth to accommodate the "stretched" data. ... or am I worrying for nothing? Very confused Dimitri Katsaros Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur On Sunday, November 3, 2013 12:06 PM, "colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: Send Colorsync-users mailing list submissions to colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com You can reach the person managing the list at colorsync-users-owner(a)lists.apple.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Colorsync-users digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? (Dimitri Katsaros) 2. Re: Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? (Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center) 3. Re: Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? (MARK SEGAL) 4. Re: Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? (René Damkot) 5. Re: Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? (Dimitri Katsaros) 6. Re: Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? (Andrew Rodney) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2013 14:15:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Dimitri Katsaros <dcka(a)yahoo.com> To: "colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? Message-ID: <1383426917.87203.YahooMailNeo(a)web140205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hey again, Since I didn't notice any replies to my last message, I guess I'll try rephrasing my question. Since OS X does not, to the best of my knowledge, support 30-bits what might be the benefits of using an NEC PA272w or the like if the resultant gamut is restricted to 24 bits? Is it the bump in internal accuracy of the 14 bits per channel LUT that lets it make sense to buy or is there something else I'm not understanding? Thank you Dimitri Katsaros Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2013 14:23:53 -0700 From: Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center <spinnakerphotoimagingcenter(a)dnmillerphoto.com> To: Dimitri Katsaros <dcka(a)yahoo.com> Cc: "colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? Message-ID: <34C7A042-B32A-4339-9847-1D33D0A6B746(a)dnmillerphoto.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I would also like to know. David B Miller, Pharm. D. member Millers' Photography L.L.C. dba Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center Bellingham, WA www.spinnakerphotoimagingcenter.com 360 739 2826 On Nov 2, 2013, at 2:15 PM, Dimitri Katsaros <dcka(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Hey again, > > Since I didn't notice any replies to my last message, I guess I'll try rephrasing my question. > > Since OS X does not, to the best of my knowledge, support 30-bits what might be the benefits of using an NEC PA272w or the like if the resultant gamut is restricted to 24 bits? Is it the bump in internal accuracy of the 14 bits per channel LUT that lets it make sense to buy or is there something else I'm not understanding? > > Thank you > Dimitri Katsaros > > Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/spinnakerphotoimagi… > > This email sent to spinnakerphotoimagingcenter(a)dnmillerphoto.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2013 14:32:57 -0700 (PDT) From: MARK SEGAL <mgsegal(a)rogers.com> To: Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center <spinnakerphotoimagingcenter(a)dnmillerphoto.com>, Dimitri Katsaros <dcka(a)yahoo.com> Cc: "colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? Message-ID: <1383427977.99163.YahooMailNeo(a)web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 My understanding is - and I stand to be corrected if this is wrong - the bit depth needs to be distinguished from the display gamut. The gamut of these wide-gamut displays is just about ARBG (98), which is what you get whether the bit depth were 24 or 30. The added bit-depth COULD provide for smoother tonal gradations and perhaps more separated shadow detail because it is capable of resolving more distinct levels, computationally. Whether one would be able to see this difference visually I suppose would depend on the file and the acuity of one's vision. Not having had the difference demonstrated to me, I have no idea. All I know is that I have a PA271W connected to my MacPro, calibrated and profiled with BasicColor 4, and I find this set-up provides a very evenly lit, high quality, tonally smooth colour-managed viewing environment from which to make prints that present no surprises as they emerge from my Epson 4900, which by the way has a gamut that in some parts of the gamut exceeds ARGB(98) on Ilford GFS paper. Mark ________________________________ From: Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center <spinnakerphotoimagingcenter(a)dnmillerphoto.com> To: Dimitri Katsaros <dcka(a)yahoo.com> Cc: "colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Sent: Saturday, November 2, 2013 5:23:53 PM Subject: Re: Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? I would also like to know. David B Miller, Pharm. D. member Millers' Photography L.L.C. dba Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center Bellingham, WA www.spinnakerphotoimagingcenter.com 360 739 2826 On Nov 2, 2013, at 2:15 PM, Dimitri Katsaros <dcka(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Hey again, > > Since I didn't notice any replies to my last message, I guess I'll try rephrasing my question. > > Since OS X does not, to the best of my knowledge, support 30-bits what might be the benefits of using an NEC PA272w or the like if the resultant gamut is restricted to 24 bits? Is it the bump in internal accuracy of the 14 bits per channel LUT that lets it make sense to buy or is there something else I'm not understanding? > > Thank you > Dimitri Katsaros > > Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/spinnakerphotoimagi… > > This email sent to spinnakerphotoimagingcenter(a)dnmillerphoto.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/mgsegal%40rogers.com This email sent to mgsegal(a)rogers.com ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2013 22:42:54 +0100 From: René Damkot <rene(a)damkot.com> To: Dimitri Katsaros <dcka(a)yahoo.com>, "colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? Message-ID: <527571DE.1010805(a)damkot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed 30 bit display: Maybe not. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5481053 Or maybe sporadic: thunderbolt only: http://nativedigital.co.uk/site/2013/10/os-x-mavericks-compatibility-is-10-… One important thing to understand: Gamut isn't restricted by the bit depth. Grtx, René Damkot www.damkot.com www.getcolormanaged.com On 02-11-13 (w 44) 22:15, Dimitri Katsaros wrote: > Hey again, > > Since I didn't notice any replies to my last message, I guess I'll try rephrasing my question. > > Since OS X does not, to the best of my knowledge, support 30-bits what might be the benefits of using an NEC PA272w or the like if the resultant gamut is restricted to 24 bits? Is it the bump in internal accuracy of the 14 bits per channel LUT that lets it make sense to buy or is there something else I'm not understanding? > > Thank you > Dimitri Katsaros > > Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/rene%40damkot.com > > This email sent to rene(a)damkot.com ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2013 16:56:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Dimitri Katsaros <dcka(a)yahoo.com> To: "colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? Message-ID: <1383436592.10988.YahooMailNeo(a)web140202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 René Damkot wrote: > One important thing to understand: Gamut isn't restricted by the bit depth. True... I always knew that... gamut is the extremes of representable colors whereas bit depth is the number of representable colors within said gamut. My question is, if one is only using a mac and not dual booting, would one not get similar results (assuming the gamut coverage is the same) with an 8-bit per channel display? Thanks Dimitri On Saturday, November 2, 2013 2:42 PM, René Damkot <rene(a)damkot.com> wrote: 30 bit display: Maybe not. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5481053 Or maybe sporadic: thunderbolt only: http://nativedigital.co.uk/site/2013/10/os-x-mavericks-compatibility-is-10-… One important thing to understand: Gamut isn't restricted by the bit depth. Grtx, René Damkot www.damkot.com www.getcolormanaged.com On 02-11-13 (w 44) 22:15, Dimitri Katsaros wrote: Hey again, Since I didn't notice any replies to my last message, I guess I'll try rephrasing my question. Since OS X does not, to the best of my knowledge, support 30-bits what might be the benefits of using an NEC PA272w or the like if the resultant gamut is restricted to 24 bits? Is it the bump in internal accuracy of the 14 bits per channel LUT that lets it make sense to buy or is there something else I'm not understanding? Thank you Dimitri Katsaros Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/rene%40damkot.com This email sent to rene(a)damkot.com ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2013 09:20:31 -0700 From: Andrew Rodney <andrew(a)digitaldog.net> To: "colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac? Message-ID: <39D5D3E7-6160-4E31-A6AA-513542D9860A(a)digitaldog.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 2, 2013, at 5:56 PM, Dimitri Katsaros <dcka(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > My question is, if one is only using a mac and not dual booting, would one not get similar results (assuming the gamut coverage is the same) with an 8-bit per channel display? Maybe yes, maybe no. Depends on the display, the rest of the path, the image and it's bit depth and color space (gamut). Many of us work with high bit files from the get-go. Why view banding that isn't in the image? IOW, we shouldn't have to ever see banding and wonder, is this in the image data or a result of a less than ideal display path? There certainly IS a point of diminishing return. Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Colorsync-users mailing list Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users End of Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 229 ************************************************

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Benefits of having an NEC PA series monitor connected to a Mac?
by Dimitri Katsaros 03 Nov '13

03 Nov '13

Hey again, Since I didn't notice any replies to my last message, I guess I'll try rephrasing my question. Since OS X does not, to the best of my knowledge, support 30-bits what might be the benefits of using an NEC PA272w or the like if the resultant gamut is restricted to 24 bits? Is it the bump in internal accuracy of the 14 bits per channel LUT that lets it make sense to buy or is there something else I'm not understanding? Thank you Dimitri Katsaros Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur

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Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 227
by Millers' Photography L.L.C. 02 Nov '13

02 Nov '13

I’ll jump in here as well. I profile my two, they’re a pair, MacBook Pro 8,3 17 inch non-glare display with i1profiler and i1pro spectro. Really not usable for anything serious. Profiling the NEC PA271w with the same hardware software combination is what I use for serious work. Millers' Photography L.L.C David B Miller, Pharm. D., member 3809 Alabama Street Bellingham, Washington 98226 360 739 2826 On Nov 1, 2013, at 12:00 PM, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com wrote: > Send Colorsync-users mailing list submissions to > colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > colorsync-users-owner(a)lists.apple.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Colorsync-users digest..." > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: calibrating MBPr display (John Lund) > 2. Re: calibrating MBPr display (Scott Martin) > > From: John Lund <john(a)jwlimages.com> > Subject: Re: calibrating MBPr display > Date: October 31, 2013 at 12:17:37 PM PDT > To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > Cc: Armand Rosenberg <armand.rosenberg(a)nrl.navy.mil> > > > Hello Armand, > > OK, I can jump in here - yes, I have calibrated mine successfully with i1 Profiler & an i1Pro2 (spectro). No issues. > > Of course even though the Retina display is nice, it's not going to match up well with a quality external display for critical color editing. > > John > > JWL Images > Emeryville, CA > > > > > On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:00 PM, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com wrote: > >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 11:00:51 -0400 >> From: Armand Rosenberg <armand.rosenberg(a)nrl.navy.mil> >> To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >> Subject: calibrating MBPr display >> Message-ID: <527270A3.2080807(a)nrl.navy.mil> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Sorry if this topic was covered recently: >> >> Would someone who has calibrated a MacBook Pro with Retina display >> please share the experience? What software/hardware did you use, and how >> did it turn out? >> >> TIA. >> Armand >> >> > > > > > > > From: Scott Martin <scott(a)on-sight.com> > Subject: Re: calibrating MBPr display > Date: October 31, 2013 at 12:21:29 PM PDT > To: "colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com List" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> > > > >> Would someone who has calibrated a MacBook Pro with Retina display please share the experience? What software/hardware did you use, and how did it turn out? > > i1Profiler with the i1DisplayPro, i1Pro and i1Pro2 have all worked fantastically well for me on the rMBP. When using the i1DisplayPro, one does need to manually select the appropriate compensation matrix (White LED) which is easy to overlook and often the source of confusion and problems for a number of my clients. > > The blacks are particularly rich on the rMBP and the differences can be significant when comparing images on a matte display. I've come to really like the rMBP display and it's ability to reproduce the rich shadows and dark saturation that occurs with night photography on baryta printing processes. Can't wait till we have a fused glass 4K 30+" display to work with... > > Scott Martin > www.on-sight.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Colorsync-users mailing list > Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users

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