December 2019 - colorsync-users

Gamut wars
by graxx＠videotron.ca 04 Dec '19

04 Dec '19

There was < Star Wars >, now there is "Gamut wars" - seriously. I'm not advocating any one as "THE" one-size-fits-all gamut. Having downloaded the BenQ SW2700PT brochure, in the heat of recent discussions, here, I could not help notice the CIE chromaticity diagram part, on page 2, graphically boasting the "99% AdobeRGB" coverage. So I imported that graphic into my Illustrator document to superimpose it on my own Chromaticity diagram and, lo and behold, if I am to believe BenQ's chart, the BenQ chromaticities do coincide pretty closely to AdobeRGB's chromaticities. See below: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkoJjt4YjiV0wk4EsMw?e=Hyndcc This is BenQ's web site link (in case): https://www.benq.com/en-us/monitor/photographer/sw2700pt.html I'm not working for this company but I do find it interesting that their price is significantly lower, for "comparable" specs, to more costly alternatives which gives me the impression that prices for wide-gamut displays are coming down. I find it interesting, too, their "positioning" in terms of "Pro-photography" and "AdobeRGB". Whether it's NTSC or SMPTE-240M, people call it AdobeRGB, nevertheless. I'm curious who buys these BenQ monitors? Most comments on Amazon are positive. / Roger

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iMac 27" 5K Retina
by graxx＠videotron.ca 04 Dec '19

04 Dec '19

Finally had the chance of measuring the primaries on an iMac 27" 5K Retina (latest INTEL Corei9 processor, 1TB SSD, the works). The numbers don't lie, Apple is on the side of "P3", voluntarily distancing themselves from Adobe, as the following graph shows: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkoJiT0F3iiQP-NYUjg?e=FNk075 I must confess I was pleasantly surprised/impressed by the quality of these panels. Apple must have quite a stringent quality assurance program wherever these babies are manufactured because the measured primaries were almost smack on the nose of P3 chromaticities. So much so that, for all intents and purposes, using the built-in ColorSync calibrator does the job. Except the gradation, which, in all honesty, the built-in calibrator can't do. This was easy to demonstrate to the Photoshop students who attended my class last night, by alternating between Apple's iMac 'built-in' profile and the one created with DisplayCAL/i1Pro2 @ native Luminance/WhitePoint, in SystemPreferences > Display > Color. Owners of these computers might want to consider investing into a colorimeter of some kind instead of resting on Apple's built-in calibrator? / Roger

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RE: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities
by graxx＠videotron.ca 04 Dec '19

04 Dec '19

I have to say, Andrew, that my experience mostly revolves around taking “existing” RGB images, where all the “damages” is already done, for editing and retouching, and then converting to CMYK, to make proofs, have them approved and out the press, the next day. That’s one workflow. Images are coming to me either tagged with AdobeRGB, sRGB or untagged. Many times, when the image is tagged with AdobeRGB, I am able to leave the profile as is, the image, judging by its rendition on the screen, doesn’t need any further work. But many times, assigning sRGB makes the tones appear more “natural”, all of a sudden? This is using a NEC PA301W calibrated monitor, “visually tweaked to perfectly good SWOP and GRACoL proofs”, outputted on non-fluorescent (Epson Standard Proofing 240) paper through ORIS ColorTuner. For a large number of folks, especially those who don’t shoot RAW, and chose sRGB in their camera, by the time they view their images on screen, all the compromises and clipping has occurred. But I realize, for the most demanding crowd, there’s no such thing as one-gamut-fits-all. Believe it or not, most of my publishing clients, even in 2019, don’t have a clue about color management, they don’t see the difference between all of the popular RGB color spaces. I won’t debate the virtues of ProPhotoRGB and I remember sitting in a presentation at Seybold, by Kevin Spaulding, then at Kodak, about how ProPhotoRGB came to be and everything about it made perfectly good sense. I think I still have one of the original white paper, somewhere on my computer. Maybe I’m long overdue for a fresh, new visit…. I’m sorry I opened this Pandora box. / Roger From: Andrew Rodney <andrew(a)digitaldog.net> Sent: December 3, 2019 10:53 AM To: <graxx(a)videotron.ca> <graxx(a)videotron.ca> Subject: Re: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities For printing on devices who's color gamut far exceed the quite limited color gamut of magazine and sheetfed OK but just awful for capture or conversion from raw, as shown so well here: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59559609 Of course I don't know that ANY printer can print all of the sRGB color gamut. Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ On Dec 3, 2019, at 7:30 AM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> > wrote: I'd be interested in anecdotes about how the limits of sRGB affect color printing from an artistic perspective. None, whatsoever, from the point of view of magazine and sheetfed printing. But that's my experience -- everyone mileage is bound to vary. Certainly speaking for myself, here, and it's a public forum, last I know, everyone's experiences and points of view were welcome 😊

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RE: iMac 27" 5K Retina
by graxx＠videotron.ca 03 Dec '19

03 Dec '19

I remember the 'genealogy' of AdobeRGB had something to do with SMTPE-240M (just could not remember the exact SMPTE 'number' -- thanks!). Is the mix of Apple users leaning more towards video/cinema than photography/print these days, to your knowledge? / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users Sent: December 3, 2019 4:20 PM To: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: iMac 27" 5K Retina It is useful to know where Adobe stands here. First of all, forget the name (Adobe RGB (1998) ) and believe it's something Adobe pushed or even proposed. In the first version of Photoshop 5.0, where ICC color management was introduced, the working space was called SMPTE-240M and it was as the name implies, was supposed to be a color space proposed by SMPTE. But Adobe got the chromaticity values off the web, one or two were wrong. They didn't realize this fact until after Photoshop 5.0 shipped when SMPTE told them of the mistake. Adobe changed the name to "Adobe RGB (1998)" because they of course could not call it SMPTE-240M; it wasn't that color space. So Adobe has no dog in the fight here about RGB working spaces despite having one with their name on it. It wasn't the intent. DCI-P3 is a newer proposed color space I believe, and based on Apple's users, and the fact the 'other' color space has 'Adobe' in the name, aimed for a different target (which isn't really that much of a difference). Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ <http://www.digitaldog.net/> > On Dec 3, 2019, at 1:58 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > > Finally had the chance of measuring the primaries on an iMac 27" 5K > Retina (latest INTEL Corei9 processor, 1TB SSD, the works). The > numbers don't lie, Apple is on the side of "P3", voluntarily > distancing themselves from Adobe, _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx(a)videotron.ca

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RE: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities
by graxx＠videotron.ca 03 Dec '19

03 Dec '19

Wow! Wayne, those guys knew how to make color 😊 No ICC profiling of any kind but they control over every element of the food chain. / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Wayne Bretl via colorsync-users Sent: December 2, 2019 9:20 PM To: 'Wire ~' <wire(a)lexiphanicism.com>; colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: RE: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities A bit of technical discussion about NTSC and television: SMPTE had no influence as far as I know on the selection of NTSC primaries. The choices were made mainly by RCA as part of the second NTSC (National Television Systems Committee; the first NTSC established monochrome standards in 1941). The standards, adopted by the FCC, simply stated that the signal should be "suitable" for the specified primaries, with no details. Because the early image orthicon cameras were noisy and used drift-prone tube circuits, it was impractical to use matrixing of the R,G,B signals to match the primaries, and as a result the camera optical filters were carefully chosen to match the NTSC phosphors. They also used the old trick of film and print reproduction in using narrow band color separation filters to enhance the saturation of ordinary object spectra. The noise limitations also meant that it was unreasonable to actually match the desired gamma correction of 1/2.2 (cameras were actually designed to about 1/1.75), so that acceptable tone rendition was obtained by careful exposure plus playing with the black level. The resulting signal gave a high-contrast reproduction that was in a way similar to Technicolor, and partially compensated for the low contrast ratio of early CRTs due to their high screen reflectivity. However, the lowlight contrast was lost in the process, and gradually improved as the display contrast ratios got better, and rather dramatically when the image orthicons were replaced by the much less noisy Plumbicon pickup tubes, plus gamma correction actually 1/2.2 and proper color matrixing. Even with these changes, there is typically a discrepancy between the saturation capability of highlights and lowlights in subtractive vs. additive systems, with subtractive systems (printing) excelling in lowlights, and emissive displays excelling in highlights. The net result is that a display with NTSC primaries, with correct black level and viewed under dim ambient, can equal or exceed the gamut of most surface colors, whereas, an sRGB display is lacking in at least the cyan and "true green" regions. The compromise to Rec 709 is strictly because those were the primaries that were available that made bright CRTs with nearly equal gun currents. The unequal gun currents in early "NTSC" CRTs were a terrible headache in terms of maintaining equal spot size and gray scale tracking between the guns. One should also note that the psychophysical sensation of "colorfulness" is affected greatly by display brightness, and the TV companies and their customers recognized this, although they may not have had the research to support it at the time. In any case, customers much preferred brighter pictures, a difference they could see immediately and continually, while they could not detect gamut limitations without seeing the TV side by side with the program stage itself.

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RE: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities
by graxx＠videotron.ca 03 Dec '19

03 Dec '19

> I'd be interested in anecdotes about how the limits of sRGB > affect color printing from an artistic perspective. None, whatsoever, from the point of view of magazine and sheetfed printing. But that's my experience -- everyone mileage is bound to vary. Certainly speaking for myself, here, and it's a public forum, last I know, everyone's experiences and points of view were welcome 😊 / Roger

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RE: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities
by graxx＠videotron.ca 03 Dec '19

03 Dec '19

sRGB is a great gamut, never mind who wrote it. I was surprised to measure the gamut on my daughter MacBookPro to find that the primaries on her tiny, little 13" screen were smack on the sRGB primaries. Maybe some people here don't like the term "sRGB", isn't Rec709 the same? The fact that it was crafted at a time where the only game in town was CRT does not deter in anyway on its usefulness as a "working space", as Adobe calls it. Would you believe I still regularly have arguments over which is better between ColorMatchRGB and sRGB/AdobeRGB? Die-hard Mac photographers. Something that was created 30 years ago is not necessarily bad or outdated, take the 1931 Standard Observer, still going strong after almost 100 years. / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users Sent: December 2, 2019 6:58 PM To: Wire ~ via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities > On Dec 2, 2019, at 4:44 PM, Wire ~ via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > > My current peeve is the denigration of sRGB. It's a color-space that > makes so much sense. Well it did in circa 1994 or so (with CRTs). I don't see what it brings to the party today. And far, far too many urban legends surrounding it. > And I'm super excited about new wide-gamut displays, and more color. More? Maybe wider gamut which is nothing really that new. Even on iPhone and iPad. Anyway, for those of us still printing, you can't do much worse than sRGB ;-} Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ <http://www.digitaldog.net/>

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RE: 3D Plots
by graxx＠videotron.ca 02 Dec '19

02 Dec '19

Sorry, I spoke too soon. I thought I'd seen the "Android" logo as well on the web site... My bad... / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of John Castronovo via colorsync-users Sent: December 2, 2019 12:00 PM To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: Re: 3D Plots There doesn't appear to be a version for Android John Castronovo -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2019 12:25 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca Cc: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List Subject: Re: 3D Plots I've had for awhile, a MacOS version of it, (2.52). Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ > On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:04 AM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users > <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > > It's called Color Spatioplotter, available for iOS, Android and > Windows : _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/jc%40technicalphoto. com This email sent to jc(a)technicalphoto.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx(a)videotron.ca

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3D Plots
by graxx＠videotron.ca 02 Dec '19

02 Dec '19

I always am fascinated by 3D plots. I find them helpful as a way to visualize abstract concepts. There are not that many such tools, sadly. I can remember Oyranos, which was remarkable by its ability to display a characterization chart in 3D while offering the ability to point at a given sample and retrieve its Lab coordinates. There's always good "ole" ColorThink that has the ability to plot an image in 3D Lab space, and recently, PatchTool, which offers 3D plotting of a chart. Having purchased an iPhone recently, I could not resist searching for apps with the keyword "color". One such app that turned out, last night, I thought, real cheap ($1.39), was noteworthy? It's called Color Spatioplotter, available for iOS, Android and Windows : http://www.iktsoft.net/tools-en/colorsp2/ Thought I'd pass the information along. If you know of some interesting color apps you like, please share the link here! Best / Roger

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RE: 3D Plots
by graxx＠videotron.ca 01 Dec '19

01 Dec '19

Wish I could talk the developer into adding a few "useful" features. / Roger From: Andrew Rodney <andrew(a)digitaldog.net> Sent: December 1, 2019 12:25 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca Cc: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: 3D Plots I've had for awhile, a MacOS version of it, (2.52). Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:04 AM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> > wrote: It's called Color Spatioplotter, available for iOS, Android and Windows :

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