June 2019 - colorsync-users

RE: Exposure Value
by graxx＠videotron.ca 22 Jun '19

22 Jun '19

Said, I'm not familiar with "CameraRAW Presets", it's probably not "Rocket Science"? I was thinking of, eventually, settling with systematically adjusting the exposure slider to get the tone distribution that I want, as I've been doing recently. But I figure I would still be losing details that way? May not be a long term solution... Thanks for the suggestion 😊 / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Said Nuseibeh <photo(a)studiosaid.com> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 11:22 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca Subject: RE: Exposure Value Roger, Are you inadvertently applying a preset in ACR with an adusted exposure? That would explain your results. Or your defaults might have been accidently tweaked. You might try creating a new preset for this camera that boosts the exposure, bringing it in line with your expectations. Good Luck, -Saïd On 6/21/19 at 12:25 AM, colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com (Roger Breton via colorsync-users) wrote: >Since I mostly shoot in RAW, with this camera, it's only natural that I >edit NEFs using CameraRAW. >What I did notice is that all NEFs shot with this camera appear >"darker" than they should, when CameraRAW main interface comes up on my >PC, as though my camera was systematically under-exposing everything,

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RE: Exposure Value
by graxx＠videotron.ca 22 Jun '19

22 Jun '19

Dear Ilah, RawDigger looks like quite a potent RAW analytical tool. Thanks for mentioning it 😊 Glad it runs on Mac and Windows. / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Iliah Borg <iliah.i.borg(a)gmail.com> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 6:33 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca Cc: Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Exposure Value Dear Roger, Based on your gray card NEF: You are in 14-bit mode, maximum is 2^14-1-black level (600) = 15873; average on the card (and the card seems to have some rather strong imperfections) is 1181 (you can check with RawDigger, trial version is enough). That puts the exposure at log2(1181 / 15871) = 3.75 EV below clipping; the camera is calibrated to produce midtone 3.35 EV below clipping, that means the exposure is 0.4 EV below the midtone.

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RE: Exposure Value
by graxx＠videotron.ca 22 Jun '19

22 Jun '19

Dear Wayne, I plan on going back to very basic "stuff" tomorrow, among others, like shooting a plain vanilla ColorChecker 24 chart. This type of target ought to easily reveal any differences between the RAW file, as developed with CameraRAW, and the JPEG "in-camera" rendering. It's going to be very easy to compare both processed pixels values. This is still a mystery to me. I probably did something silly on my camera ... Best / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Bretl <waynebretl(a)cox.net> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 11:10 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca; 'Iliah Borg' <iliah.i.borg(a)gmail.com>; Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: RE: Exposure Value Dear Roger, Without further evidence, it is still a mystery why your original raw-file-only mode pictures show apparent underexposure, and the ones taken after choosing raw + jpeg do not. Is it possible you changed another mode setting, like going from Program to Full Automatic, or some other setting (matrix, spot, center average) that changed the exposure metering mode in your camera? Some modes may center the dominant exposure sensing on the in-focus point, for example. Some cameras also have an automatic tone curve adjustment (possibly enabled or disabled according to the exposure mode and/or in a menu somewhere) that attempts to recognize and compensate for various types of images. This is an opportunity for the camera to do things you don't like, as well as possibly rescuing some shots for the unknowledgeable person using full automatic mode. Another thing to note is that while the data in the raw file is supposed to be a mostly untouched rendering of the light falling on the sensor, the rendering output of the raw processor definitely is not so simple. The rendering is not even simply an application of a gamma curve to match the standard jpg 1/2.2 power. That sort of simple process was used in very early digital cameras adapted from video chips, such as the Sony Mavica, and was universally disliked compared to film. Now, raw processors always apply an S curve, mimicking film, because this provides the best looking result: an increase in contrast (at least for the mid tones) to compensate color appearance effects of the human visual system, and a gradual toe and shoulder to accommodate highlights and shadows without severe clipping. This is one example of the kind of behind-the-curtain processes, the details of which are buried in the camera profile and never revealed to the user by Adobe camera raw. Regards, Wayne -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+waynebretl=cox.net(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Roger Breton via colorsync-users Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 7:15 PM To: 'Iliah Borg' <iliah.i.borg(a)gmail.com> Cc: Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: RE: Exposure Value Dear Ilah, Thank you so much for applying your vast technical expertise to my humble problem. I realize, again, that there is so much to learn in digital photography, I feel ashamed to have neglected digging into this fascinating part of image processing for so long (It took me more than a few CPU cycles of my brain to figure Exposure Value, today)... For sure, I need to invest in a "new" gray card, I confess that this one has seen its share of "tales from the trenches". Having said that, I'm relieved to read in your analysis that my camera "light meter" isn't playing tricks on me or need to go back to the manufacturer under warranty. I *will* reshoot, for sure, as you suggested. It's an exercise worth every effort and probably investigate using one of your suggested software.. For now, I am not sure what to conclude from my experience? Tomorrow, I will probably experiment with shooting A) RAW alone and shooting B) RAW + JPEG. In "theory", there should not be any difference between the two modes of shooting but if there should be one, then this is going to prove interesting. Have you had a chance to take a look at my Excel sheet at all? To see whether I correctly applied the metering equations from measured Luminance and Illuminance? I think the calculations are sound. One last thing I have not tried and I *will* try is, to shoot with my antique D100, in RAW, to compare with shooting the same scene with the D810, in RAW, to test any potential differences between the two systems, in terms of exposure. One thing I wonder, as I was thinking about the experimental setup, something completely absurd (?), was, what that, could there be any difference in the underlying capture of the pixels between the two cameras? Suppose, on the D810, at 1/200s, F/5.6, ISO400, the histogram looks skewed to the left, suggesting some degree of under-exposure (see my earlier links)? Suppose further, on the D100, at the same 1/200s, F/5.6, ISO400 settings, the histogram looks "normal", with pixels distributed throughout the tonal range, from 0 to 255, then what? Until I'm convinced that there is nothing wrong with this camera, I figure I need to further test it, until I'm fully satisfied that there is nothing "wrong" with it. Best regards / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Iliah Borg <iliah.i.borg(a)gmail.com> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 6:33 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca Cc: Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Exposure Value Dear Roger, Based on your gray card NEF: You are in 14-bit mode, maximum is 2^14-1-black level (600) = 15873; average on the card (and the card seems to have some rather strong imperfections) is 1181 (you can check with RawDigger, trial version is enough). That puts the exposure at log2(1181 / 15871) = 3.75 EV below clipping; the camera is calibrated to produce midtone 3.35 EV below clipping, that means the exposure is 0.4 EV below the midtone. Nothing dramatic so far, provided that the card has a lot of wear and tear on it, it isn't shot out of focus, and not at an angle as it should be (see http://www.zonephoto.it/images/pdf/kodak-grey-card1903061.pdf ). The result is mathematically inconclusive - but from my experience I would be expecting something like the numbers above, given how the shot was taken, and would say that metering is calibrated OK. Of course, if you could re-shoot we will be able to come to a more definite conclusion. On Jun 21, 2019, at 6:03 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users wrote: > I will get to the Gray Card NEF in a few minutes, Ilah, but I thought I would try turning on Image quality = NEF + JPEG in the camera shooting menu? > > And I got very different results? > See this link: > https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLVK68wxOJ6dhvv2nQ > > On the left hand side is the JPEG opened in Photoshop as usual, and on the right hand side is the RAW, opened in CameraRAW. The only thing that I could say is the Histograms are very different, this time, extending well into the highlights... > > Thanks for you guys patience and help. > I'm trying to contact Nikon tech support... > > Best / Roger > > > -----Original Message----- > From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Roger Breton via colorsync-users > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 5:44 PM > To: 'Wayne Bretl' <waynebretl(a)cox.net>; Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > Subject: RE: Exposure Value > > I just tried with ViewNX2 and it is still too "dark"? > So it is not coming from CameraRAW -- good news 😊 > > ViewNX2 link is here: > https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLVIL-cOCJBYIX0LuA > > CameraRAW link is here: > https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLVJgBzv-yK7ygFD7g > > The histograms are not lying, this is under-exposed. > > Best / Roger > > > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca > > This email sent to graxx(a)videotron.ca > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/iliah.i.borg%40gmai… > > This email sent to iliah.i.borg(a)gmail.com -- Best regards, Iliah Borg LibRaw, LLC www.libraw.org www.rawdigger.com www.fastrawviewer.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/waynebretl%40cox.net This email sent to waynebretl(a)cox.net

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RE: Exposure Value
by graxx＠videotron.ca 21 Jun '19

21 Jun '19

I will get to the Gray Card NEF in a few minutes, Ilah, but I thought I would try turning on Image quality = NEF + JPEG in the camera shooting menu? And I got very different results? See this link: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLVK68wxOJ6dhvv2nQ On the left hand side is the JPEG opened in Photoshop as usual, and on the right hand side is the RAW, opened in CameraRAW. The only thing that I could say is the Histograms are very different, this time, extending well into the highlights... Thanks for you guys patience and help. I'm trying to contact Nikon tech support... Best / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Roger Breton via colorsync-users Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 5:44 PM To: 'Wayne Bretl' <waynebretl(a)cox.net>; Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: RE: Exposure Value I just tried with ViewNX2 and it is still too "dark"? So it is not coming from CameraRAW -- good news 😊 ViewNX2 link is here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLVIL-cOCJBYIX0LuA CameraRAW link is here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLVJgBzv-yK7ygFD7g The histograms are not lying, this is under-exposed. Best / Roger _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx(a)videotron.ca

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RE: Exposure Value
by graxx＠videotron.ca 21 Jun '19

21 Jun '19

Ilah, It is a 42 MB download. https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLVLRW2DrSP31ytdYA / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Iliah Borg <iliah.i.borg(a)gmail.com> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 5:52 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca Cc: 'Wayne Bretl' <waynebretl(a)cox.net>; Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Exposure Value Dear Roger, Histograms reflect rendered data, not the exposure data. Exposure has nothing to do with lightness or brightness. Lightness is the result of rendering (development), brightness you can change with a monitor brightness knob ;) Please make the raw file of the grey card shot available and we will see ;) On Jun 21, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users wrote: > I just tried with ViewNX2 and it is still too "dark"? > So it is not coming from CameraRAW -- good news 😊 > > ViewNX2 link is here: > https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLVIL-cOCJBYIX0LuA > > CameraRAW link is here: > https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLVJgBzv-yK7ygFD7g > > The histograms are not lying, this is under-exposed. > > Best / Roger -- Best regards, Iliah Borg LibRaw, LLC www.libraw.org www.rawdigger.com www.fastrawviewer.com

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RE: Exposure Value
by graxx＠videotron.ca 21 Jun '19

21 Jun '19

I just tried with ViewNX2 and it is still too "dark"? So it is not coming from CameraRAW -- good news 😊 ViewNX2 link is here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLVIL-cOCJBYIX0LuA CameraRAW link is here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLVJgBzv-yK7ygFD7g The histograms are not lying, this is under-exposed. Best / Roger

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Exposure Value
by graxx＠videotron.ca 21 Jun '19

21 Jun '19

I know this may not sound very much like color management but I have to ask 😊 Here is a link to an Excel sheet where I compare the Exposure Value from my camera to the Exposure values calculated from a scene original photometric properties. https://1drv.ms/x/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLVHRATQaJhc56YZww I suspect my camera “light meter” is kaput? But after going through the calculations, I’m not drawn to the same conclusion. If you have a chance and are familiar with Exposure Value determination, I would appreciate you give me some feedback on my equations. I think I’m on the right track but, since I never went through these equations before, I have a doubt. Best / Roger Breton www.graxx.ca

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RE: Exposure Value
by graxx＠videotron.ca 21 Jun '19

21 Jun '19

What led me to think the camera meter was kaput? Well, you know me, I would never go outside Adobe's products Since I mostly shoot in RAW, with this camera, it's only natural that I edit NEFs using CameraRAW. What I did notice is that all NEFs shot with this camera appear "darker" than they should, when CameraRAW main interface comes up on my PC, as though my camera was systematically under-exposing everything, you see? I phoned the store where I bought the camera from, it's still under warranty and was about to take it there earlier today when I thought of doing some research on Exposure Value, to try to ascertain myself, whether my camera was actually "under-exposing"? And as you can see, I have to reject this conclusion. I also compared with my age old "Antique", a Nikon D100, and I got the same shutter speed / aperture value for the same ISO 400 sensitivity. So is it CameraRAW? I don't dare think it is. I was thinking, perhaps, opening some RAW NEFs using Nikon's own software, to see whether the images still come out on the "dark side"... Thanks for your help / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Bretl <waynebretl(a)cox.net> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 5:14 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca; Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: RE: Exposure Value ? I see three methods in agreement. What led you to think the camera meter was kaput? Best, Wayne bretl -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+waynebretl=cox.net(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Roger Breton via colorsync-users Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 1:56 PM To: ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Exposure Value I know this may not sound very much like color management but I have to ask 😊 Here is a link to an Excel sheet where I compare the Exposure Value from my camera to the Exposure values calculated from a scene original photometric properties. https://1drv.ms/x/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLVHRATQaJhc56YZww I suspect my camera “light meter” is kaput? But after going through the calculations, I’m not drawn to the same conclusion. If you have a chance and are familiar with Exposure Value determination, I would appreciate you give me some feedback on my equations. I think I’m on the right track but, since I never went through these equations before, I have a doubt. Best / Roger Breton www.graxx.ca _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/waynebretl%40cox.net This email sent to waynebretl(a)cox.net

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RE: XRite i1Pro3+ announcement
by graxx＠videotron.ca 20 Jun '19

20 Jun '19

You are richtig, Refik! There must be an i1pro3 with the regular 3.4mm aperture on it way as well. Maybe later? Best / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Refik Telhan via colorsync-users Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2019 6:28 AM To: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: XRite i1Pro3+ announcement Hi Scott, Could this mean that an "i1Pro3" with a smaller aperture is also on its way? The new LED illuminant will put this i1Pro3 inline with all the other new devices. The 8 mm aperture implies a patch size of 10-12 mm, which is not convenient for offset, flexo or similar printing. And the polarized M3 mode could supply data for spectral-based density measurements from wet prints with the support of BabelColor CT&A or Aleyant QualityControl. Best, Refik Telhan Light and Color Management Consultancy

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XRite i1Pro3+ announcement
by Scott Martin 20 Jun '19

20 Jun '19

XRite brings polarized, transmissive and large aperture measurements back with the i1Pro3+. https://www.xrite.com/about-us/news-events/press-releases/xrite-announces-i… <https://www.xrite.com/about-us/news-events/press-releases/xrite-announces-i…> Polarized M3 measurements mean smooth shadow tonality and better color saturation on textured surfaces like glossy canvas. The large 8mm aperature (vs the i1Pro2’s 1.5mm) translates into data rich, extreme shadow measurements and the smoothed averaging of textured surfaces and large dot patterns. The i1Pro3+ contains a new LED illuminant that allows for simultaneous M0, M1, M2 measurement in a single pass. Transmissive scanning allows us to measure and profile backlit printing processes with any light table. An updated iO table supports the i1Pro3+ for reflective measurement. More soon... Scott Martin www.on-sight.com Precise color science for printmaking professionals

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