June 2019 - colorsync-users

Documentation on creation of FOGRA 51 and FOGRA 52
by Hanno Hoffstadt 13 Jun '19

13 Jun '19

Hi everybody, I've just noticed the conversation, sorry. I won't get into the discussion about consequences for the application now. But you can see in the documentation how (and maybe why) FOGRA 51 was created that way. It is online on eci.org<http://eci.org> and in English. A bit hard to find - it is in the Resources section of the FRED15 project which led to F51 and F52: http://www.eci.org/en/projects/fred15#fred15_project_material The direct links are: FOGRA 51: http://www.eci.org/_media/en/fred15/hanno_hoffstadt_taga2016_v2.pdf The method is a virtual calibration of many real prints to a perfect standard using the spectral model behind GMG OpenColor, and then averaging those spectral data. FOGRA 52: http://www.eci.org/_media/en/projects/f51_f52_beta_doc_handout.pdf FOGRA 52 == FOGRA 52-beta; but FOGRA 51-beta is an older, abandoned approach, so ignore that part please. For FOGRA 52, we had a couple of validation test prints in 2014/2015, but we didn't want to go through the same modelling effort. Instead, we decided that - given the much higher variability of uncoated papers - the FOGRA 52 beta was good enough. Because of the different approach, including empirical Lab shifts, we do not have spectral data for FOGRA 52. Best regards Hanno

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Custom Profiling - Canon iR-ADV C7565i II
by Barry Gorrell 13 Jun '19

13 Jun '19

Hello, We took delivery on a Canon imageRUNNER Advanced 7565i II a week ago to replace an aging Xerox Phaser 7800GX. We typically run Hammermill Color Copy Paper in these laser printers for proofing purposes. Making a custom profile for the Phaser and using it was pretty easy and straightforward. The Canon iR7565 however, is proving to be a bit more challenging. Canon’s native profile for this printer produces prints with a red cast as was the case with the Phaser. A custom profile should remedy this problem. We are running Mac OS 10.13.6 and use an X-Rite i1 Publish Pro 2 as our profiling solution. The Canon postscript printer driver is v4.14 for Mac. A CMYK linearization print was made and read. Then a 1044 patch CMYK target was printed and scanned to make a custom CMYK profile. Unfortunately our test image still prints with the same red cast as with Canon’s native profile. There are some issues with the Mac version of the printer driver that make it unclear how and whether color management is actually off when printing. Wondering if anyone in the group might have experience profiling one of these Canon imageRUNNER Advance C7565i II units? We did not purchase the optional Fiery RIP. Thanks, Barry Gorrell VCP Lab Coordinator [cid:50FA3AFD-DCB0-4FC0-BA82-AB68F1EFD69A]

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Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 30
by Barry Gorrell 13 Jun '19

13 Jun '19

Hi Refik, Thanks for the suggestion, but we already tried printing our X-Rite CMYK Linerization and profiling targets (TIFF) from ACPU. They simply will not print. Printer goes through what sounds like a normal print cycle but just spits out a blank page. We are able to print the targets from the i1 Publish app, but only option under “Color Matching” is “Colorsync”. The “In Printer” option is grayed out. When we go to the “Quality” settings in the printer driver, Under the “Color Mode” menu are “Profile Settings”. The “Output Profile” is grayed out, but the grayed out profile name is “Canon iR-ADV C7565” which I assume is Canon’s native profile for the printer. The driver installation also install a profile called “Canon EPColor Printer.icc”. We’ve tried print with and without that profile and it seems to make no difference. I’ve checked all the hidden profiles that were installed with the printer driver, but none of them have a “Multi-localized description string” name of “Canon iR-ADV C7565”. So We’re not sure where this profile is actually located. If we could identify it’s location then we can probably work around it. All comments and/or suggestions are welcome! Barry Gorrell VCP Lab Coordinator Cecil College _________________________________ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 02:14:14 +0300 From: Refik Telhan <rtelhan(a)icloud.com<mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>> To: "colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Cc: Barry Gorrell <bgorrell(a)cecil.edu<mailto:bgorrell@cecil.edu>> Subject: Re: Custom Profiling - Canon iR-ADV C7565i II Message-ID: <13230C4A-1E8C-4395-8991-932CBDE4CED7(a)icloud.com<mailto:13230C4A-1E8C-4395-8991-932CBDE4CED7@icloud.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Barry, You can try printing your profiling chart via Adobe Color Printer Utility (ACPU). You can download ACPU from: https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/kb/no-color-management-option-missing.html Best regards, Refik Telhan Light and Color Management Consultancy ------------------------ On 12.06.2019 01:53, "colorsync-users on behalf of Barry Gorrell via colorsync-users" <colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=icloud.com(a)lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=icloud.com@lists.apple.com> on behalf of colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>

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RE: Fogra 51 and 52
by graxx＠videotron.ca 10 Jun '19

10 Jun '19

Quick comment, Martin. On recent press calibrations, I noticed that Black ink is often quite warm, like b* = +4.00 to +5 and +6. But it has not been my personal experience that Black ink is "on the blue side"? I'll have to revisit some of my observations to double-check. / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 10:52 AM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca Cc: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Fogra 51 and 52 > On 10 Jun 2019, at 14:45, Roger Breton via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > > Yet, I gather that the data was extensively tested "visually" between participating proofing vendors and printers, and that "everyone" was satisfied with the results. (I got the points you raised on your reply on the ECI List and will go through them) I’m not happy with the results. And I’m not happy with the changes that this has somehow caused to the older proofing standards like 39 and 47. It is now impossible to accurately proof anything composed predominantly of black ink. Black is now blue-shifted on proof. CMYK black and white images are a chilly blue black now — even in Fogra 39 — and look nothing like the printed result. We should have a competition to see how blue patch A18 from a Fogra 39 media wedge can be before it fails verification. I reckon you can hit b -4 and still get a pass on a Fogra proof. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd

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Fogra 51 and 52
by graxx＠videotron.ca 10 Jun '19

10 Jun '19

Do we know what instrumentation was used to measure Fogra 51 and 52? Just "M1"? Best / Roger

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Unsubscribe please
by vswinds＠nycap.rr.com 10 Jun '19

10 Jun '19

Unsubscribe Please.Kim Kim LorangVisual Winds Studio Hours: Tuesday - Friday 10:30 - 5www.visualwinds.com -----------------------------------------From: colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Cc: Sent: Monday June 10 2019 3:00:01PM Subject: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 28 Send colorsync-users mailing list submissions to colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit This email sent to rtelhan(a)icloud.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:08:07 +0000 From: Marcelo Copetti To: Refik Telhan , colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: Re[2]: Fogra 51 and 52 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Dear Refik Looks obvious that is an average of all measuments, correct? Only to have sure. Do you know what software package they used to it? Thank you Best regards Marcelo Copetti www.easycolor.com.br E-mail: marcelo(a)easycolor.com.br Cel: 41 9 9941-1740 - Whatsapp Cel: 71 9 9683-6873 - Whatsapp ------ Mensagem original ------ De: "Refik Telhan via colorsync-users" Para: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Enviado(s): 09/06/2019 23:30:12 Assunto: Re: Fogra 51 and 52 >Dear Roger, > >The following quotation is from Mr. Hanno Hoffstadt's mail dated 19.02.2019 which he had sent as part of the thread "[ECI-EN] Issues related with the switch from FOGRA39/47 to FOGRA51/52": > >"The original M1 measurement data for FOGRA51 (6 test prints, 6 printers, 4 papers; all measured by 4 devices - i1pro2, fd7, exact, spectrodens)..." > >Best, > >Refik > >-------------------------------------------------------- >Refik Telhan, EE B.Sc. > >Light and Color Management Consultancy > >Aydogdu Sokak 12A, Tarabya Mahallesi >Sariyer, 34457, Istanbul, Turkey > >Mobile: + (90) (532) 426 21 87 >-------------------------------------------------------- > > >On 09.06.2019 00:32, "colorsync-users on behalf of Roger Breton via colorsync-users" wrote: > > Do we know what instrumentation was used to measure Fogra 51 and 52? > Just "M1"? > > > > Best / Roger > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > > >This email sent to marcelo(a)easycolor.com.br ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 09:45:32 -0400 From: graxx(a)videotron.ca To: 'Refik Telhan' , colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: RE: Fogra 51 and 52 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Rafik, At some point, I will buy the idea that "some" data had to be brought in to build the Fogra51 profile, and it only makes sense that the data was the result of averaging a number of measurements from popular M1 instruments such as the ones you (Hanno) enumerated below : > "The original M1 measurement data for FOGRA51 (6 test prints, 6 > printers, 4 papers; all measured by 4 devices - i1pro2, fd7, exact, > spectrodens)..." This development reminds me of the way the original SWOP TR-001:1995 dataset was arrived at, out of an average of 12 sheets, 4 measured by X-Rite, 4 measured by Kodak (not 100% sure?) and 4 measured by Gretag (SPM-100). It was an average of "selected sheets", ones that were closest in terms of SWOP's target solid ink densities and dot gain on Champion TextWeb #5 coated paper. Now, is Fogra51 a "straight" averaging of M1 measurements? It's possible that, through averaging, some of the "outliers" fall into place and the resulting data becomes "smoother", mathematically. It's very possible. In my own practice and those of many users I know, averaging a number of sheets helps catch the "centroid" of the system behavior. But it's possible and likely that the data was also smoothed on top of being averaged. *And* what I find more likely is that the averaged and smoothed data was also "edited" synthetically, using advanced tools, we, mere mortal color users don't have access to, in order to "align" with existing data for historical or other considerations. Yet, I gather that the data was extensively tested "visually" between participating proofing vendors and printers, and that "everyone" was satisfied with the results. (I got the points you raised on your reply on the ECI List and will go through them) I confess this is all speculations on my part as I did not participate in Fogra51 (I wish...) I have a link to a PDF which dokuments Fogra51 development but it is in German... (which makes me regret not having taking more than the first German language course during my undergraduate studies -- I did take three courses in Italian, though...) / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Refik Telhan Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2019 10:30 PM To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Cc: graxx(a)videotron.ca Subject: Re: Fogra 51 and 52 Dear Roger, The following quotation is from Mr. Hanno Hoffstadt's mail dated 19.02.2019 which he had sent as part of the thread "[ECI-EN] Issues related with the switch from FOGRA39/47 to FOGRA51/52": "The original M1 measurement data for FOGRA51 (6 test prints, 6 printers, 4 papers; all measured by 4 devices - i1pro2, fd7, exact, spectrodens)..." Best, Refik -------------------------------------------------------- Refik Telhan, EE B.Sc. Light and Color Management Consultancy Aydogdu Sokak 12A, Tarabya Mahallesi Sariyer, 34457, Istanbul, Turkey Mobile: + (90) (532) 426 21 87 -------------------------------------------------------- On 09.06.2019 00:32, "colorsync-users on behalf of Roger Breton via colorsync-users" wrote: Do we know what instrumentation was used to measure Fogra 51 and 52? Just "M1"? Best / Roger _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/private/colorsync-users/attachments/2019061…> /> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 10:55:20 -0400 From: graxx(a)videotron.ca To: 'Martin Orpen' Cc: "''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'" Subject: RE: Fogra 51 and 52 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Quick comment, Martin. On recent press calibrations, I noticed that Black ink is often quite warm, like b* = +4.00 to +5 and +6. But it has not been my personal experience that Black ink is "on the blue side"? I'll have to revisit some of my observations to double-check. / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Martin Orpen Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 10:52 AM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca Cc: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List Subject: Re: Fogra 51 and 52 > On 10 Jun 2019, at 14:45, Roger Breton via colorsync-users wrote: > > Yet, I gather that the data was extensively tested "visually" between participating proofing vendors and printers, and that "everyone" was satisfied with the results. (I got the points you raised on your reply on the ECI List and will go through them) I’m not happy with the results. And I’m not happy with the changes that this has somehow caused to the older proofing standards like 39 and 47. It is now impossible to accurately proof anything composed predominantly of black ink. Black is now blue-shifted on proof. CMYK black and white images are a chilly blue black now — even in Fogra 39 — and look nothing like the printed result. We should have a competition to see how blue patch A18 from a Fogra 39 media wedge can be before it fails verification. I reckon you can hit b -4 and still get a pass on a Fogra proof. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:19:50 +0100 From: Martin Orpen To: graxx(a)videotron.ca Cc: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" Subject: Re: Fogra 51 and 52 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > On 10 Jun 2019, at 15:55, graxx(a)videotron.ca wrote: > > On recent press calibrations, I noticed that Black ink is often quite warm, like b* = +4.00 to +5 and +6. But it has not been my personal experience that Black ink is "on the blue side"? I'll have to revisit some of my observations to double-check. Roger That’s what we’d expect. Why our proofing systems are now generating — and happy to pass — 40% black tints with results like b -3.6 (on a substrate where b = -2) I have no idea? Never used to see this in the days before 51 & 52 turned the whole world blue. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd

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RE: Fogra 51 and 52
by graxx＠videotron.ca 10 Jun '19

10 Jun '19

Martin, I am not 100% sure that my observations were actually made on "optically brightened" press sheets. It's very possible that these observations were made on "mildly" or "not much at all" optically-brightened paper. I have to dig my data... I wish I was still seating next to the press room, then I could simply get up and go pick a few sheets off the press on any job ran on a "good" optically-brightened paper. But I will get to good samples of OB paper and gladly share my findings then. Believe me, there is nothing I want more than get to the bottom of this M1 business. If only for my own mental sanity 😊 / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 11:20 AM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca Cc: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Fogra 51 and 52 > On 10 Jun 2019, at 15:55, graxx(a)videotron.ca wrote: > > On recent press calibrations, I noticed that Black ink is often quite warm, like b* = +4.00 to +5 and +6. But it has not been my personal experience that Black ink is "on the blue side"? I'll have to revisit some of my observations to double-check. Roger That’s what we’d expect. Why our proofing systems are now generating — and happy to pass — 40% black tints with results like b -3.6 (on a substrate where b = -2) I have no idea? Never used to see this in the days before 51 & 52 turned the whole world blue. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd

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Understanding color management, by Abhay Sharma, 2nd Edition
by rudy harvey 04 Jun '19

04 Jun '19

Hi Roger,Good to see you are still working and involved. Have not talked to you in about 10 years. Thanks for the review of the new edition of Understanding color management, by Abhay Sharma, 2nd Edition.I will have to pick that up, have not read any new books on color management lately. I do have the the first version. Good to see you are still working and involved. Regards,Rudy Harveyrudy(a)thecolorspace.com On Friday, May 31, 2019, 12:00:25 PM PDT, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com <colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: Send colorsync-users mailing list submissions to colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com You can reach the person managing the list at colorsync-users-owner(a)lists.apple.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of colorsync-users digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Understanding color management, by Abhay Sharma, 2nd Edition (graxx(a)videotron.ca) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 13:33:45 -0400 From: graxx(a)videotron.ca To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: Understanding color management, by Abhay Sharma, 2nd Edition Message-ID: <02fc01d517d7$006b57e0$014207a0$(a)videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I had the chance to read through this recently updated text and I wanted to share some of my thoughts, here, for those who seek more information about color management. First of all, I found the presentation “readily accessible”, with just the right balance of key concepts and examples. There are a host of relevant figures and screen captures, from Adobe Photoshop and many popular software packages such as X-Rite i1Profiler, which help illustrate the important ideas while adding the value to the discussions. Second, I found the coverage quite up to date with the current status of the industry, both in terms of “hard-copy” publication form and “electronic” form. Print is still not dead while smartphones and the internet are ubiquitous. I appreciated the sections on ISO-13655 M0 vs M1 vs M2 measurements. I also appreciated the sections on lighting and its methods of evaluation. I appreciated the section on calculation of CIE XYZ tri-stimulus values – always a treat for the eye, a must do exercise for my students, when I get the chance, in Excel. There are sections on XML – yes, XML! – “profiling”. Never thought I’d be drawn to “XML color management” one day but it is there, nevertheless, and it is found, according to the author in what’s called ICCmax and Windows’s own WCS which, not too many people were fond of, when it initially came out. Very worth investigating, if only, to possibly work around the weird kind of encoding of ICC profiles, as far as I’m concerned… Third, I wish I would have had access to a text like this when I started my foray into color management, a few years ago. But all I got what “Color reproduction” by Robert Hunt. Not as “readily accessible”. “Thorough” but not for the mainstream, I later found out. Fourth, it’s obvious that efforts were made for the graphics and images to be reproduced accurately 😊 Fifth, my mother tongue is not English but I have to say I did not stumble on any overly complicated technical jargon. I found the text clear to read, unambiguous and pleasant. Overall, a big thumb’s up! Even though I can say I have learned quite a bit about color management on my own, over the years, through my humble experiences and readings, I have to say I have far from exhausted the subject and this book helped fill many of the “little recesses” I still hold about color management. Thank you so much, Dr Sharma. / Roger Breton www.graxx.ca ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ colorsync-users mailing list colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users ------------------------------ End of colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 23 ***********************************************

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RE: i1Profiler profiling (graxx@videotron.ca)
by graxx＠videotron.ca 03 Jun '19

03 Jun '19

Paul, > It’s a bit strange that you don’t get much different reads on > M1 than on M0 (M2 I don’t think apply here). There seems to > be quite considerable amount of OBA in the paper. > > /Paul L, Digital Dots Have you had the chance to personally use or work with this Epson Proofing Standard 240 paper? It is anything but fluorescent. In fact, in my experience, according to shining a 360nm UV lamp at it directly and comparing with other so-called "high-end" OBA-free substrates, side by side, like GMG and ORIS, it does not glow much, if at all. CIE b* < -2.00 are considered "pretty neutral" if you ask me. I don't work for Epson and they're not giving me any paper free, btw. I'm super critical when the time comes to choosing a proofing paper. I know, from experience, how the presence of OB in the paper will haunt me thereafter. / Roger

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Re: i1Profiler profiling (graxx@videotron.ca)
by Paul Lindström 03 Jun '19

03 Jun '19

> 1. i1Profiler profiling (graxx(a)videotron.ca) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2019 12:48:37 -0400 > From: graxx(a)videotron.ca > To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > Subject: i1Profiler profiling > Message-ID: <00e901d51963$0845b360$18d11a20$(a)videotron.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > This is probably a simple question but I have to ask. > > I'm using a Colorburst RIP to convert from, say, GRACoL2006_C1 to my Epson > printer. I use i1Profiler to generate both profiles. > > I'm using Epson Standard Proofing 240 paper, which has "nominal" CIE Lab > coordinates equal to 95.00 0.00 -2.00 : > > https://epson.com/For-Work/Paper/Pro-Imaging/Standard-Proofing-Paper-(240)/m > /S045112 > > GRACoL2006_C1 official spec has this Media White Point for the substrate : > >> 95.00 -0.03 -1.93 > > My Epson paper CIE Lab coordinates, as measured with a Minolta FD-9 (M0 vs > M1 vs M2 is all the same), turns out : > >> 94.00 0.22 -1.78 > > Not "far". > > I insist on setting the Rendering Intent in the RIP to Absolute Colorimetric > but I end up with some fractional Cyan dot percentage on the output (0.4C > 0.0M 0.0Y 0.0K)? > > I don't suppose there is a way to "force" the Media White Point to remain > "zero" through any one of i1Profiler's Advanced profile generation option? > > I noticed i1Profiler has a drop down menu called "Profile White Point" (not > documented anywhere I found?) among its myriad of profile generation > settings. It offers: > > - Default (Recommended); > > - Custom (which lets me enter any CIE Lab coordinates I care) > > - From saved ICC profile (not useful in this case, as far as I can see?) > > - From saved measurement (not useful in this case, as far as I can see?) > > I know some RIPs offer the option to keep "Zero" at "Zero", on output, but > wonder whether it can be done at profile generation time through i1Profiler? > > In the past, I managed to do this through "editing curves" in the printer > profile with HDM ColorToolbox, in the Edit tab (may have to resort to the > same "trick" this time again.) or through the Proof Correction tab (they > have a specific option called "Keep paper white") which allows iterating > down a pair of CMYK to CMYK profiles conversion. > > Any help is appreciated. > > / Roger Breton > www.graxx.ca It’s a bit strange that you don’t get much different reads on M1 than on M0 (M2 I don’t think apply here). There seems to be quite considerable amount of OBA in the paper. But I don’t use i1Profiler much, actually still use the old ProfileMaker under Windows through Parallels. There is a nice old feature to modify the whitepoint of the profile if you are not happy with the result. But if you get bluish whitepoint in your proof, it means the CMM try and overcompensate for what it thinks is a too yellowish printing paper (if my logic is right here). But modifying the whitepoint is a bit of a cheat, so you should probably try and get it right using the generated ICC-profile "as is”. Any help from X-Rite? /Paul L, Digital Dots

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