August 2006 - Darwin-dev - lists.apple.com

Re: MACFORGE request for a project
by Dave Schroeder 28 Aug '06

28 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Aug 28, 2006, at 2:44 PM, almisr wrote: Cheers, M sorry but the base BSD is not secret ... it's not the subject of my project request and i 'm very happy we don't work together ... I just used it to try to stay polished I am afraid you are incorrect. - Dave _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com I apologize if I angered you in some way but I don't really understand what you said- do you use some web translation tool? Perhaps you didn't understand what I said either. To be clear, Apple claims that the Darwin project is open source project when, in fact, the processes behind the development of the project are absolute secrets. Therefore, to make any contribution to the Darwin project, you are one of the following: 1) an Apple employee 2) contributing a small, self-contained patch 2) someone that can anticipate Apple's next move before they make it, thereby saving Apple development time and money second : there is no secret in dev , just work BSD and Darwin are not the same thing - I am sure you know that. If you're talking about contributing to any of the BSDs, that is fine. However, there is no easy or traditional way for normal people to contribute changes to Darwin (and thus Mac OS X). If you are proposing to create such a way, I wish you the best of luck. The OpenDarwin project tried to do just that and failed after six years, even when numerous people from Apple itself were involved. It is a true statement to say that things related to Darwin itself and open source projects at Apple are secret. This does not allow others to contribute changes, because they do not have access to the details of the development in a collaborative way. smime.p7s

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Re: MACFORGE request for a project
by almisr 28 Aug '06

28 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com -M Cheers, M sorry but the base BSD is not secret ... it's not the subject of my project request and i 'm very happy we don't work together ... I just used it to try to stay polished second : there is no secret in dev , just work Best Regards {|} _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… Indeed- Darwin isn't your run-of-the-mill open source project. Instead, it's more of a "here's-some-code--the-release-process-is- a-secret" project. It's a one-way street. It is not with this kind of speech that you will do something in your life ... it is an easy answer fortunately that you do not work with me because you would have badly with the buttocks I apologize if I angered you in some way but I don't really understand what you said- do you use some web translation tool? Perhaps you didn't understand what I said either. To be clear, Apple claims that the Darwin project is open source project when, in fact, the processes behind the development of the project are absolute secrets. Therefore, to make any contribution to the Darwin project, you are one of the following: 1) an Apple employee 2) contributing a small, self-contained patch 2) someone that can anticipate Apple's next move before they make it, thereby saving Apple development time and money This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Re: Re: Re: MACFORGE request for a project
by Corey O'Connor 28 Aug '06

28 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hqfLVHg1i+lngVsEeLVRES9XVjowcSsG7KPO5BW0uEiozsdQ5XRbf+np/iLf/cebH5OIQ6cW7H5wiK2r3hKH4eKma4BcAt0k1VatyNcSq4QVgjxEgs1gAA7RNzZw33Xw8hHGAmgXm1d19rGe0aRDjCDwvmqcBCClpEp4BK/D8lY= On 8/28/06, Corey O'Connor <coreyoconnor(a)gmail.com> wrote: > The point of cleaning up code is to improve the conceptual mapping > from the requirements to the implementation. To me the most basic > code-cleanup is reformatting, "K&R removal", variable renaming, and > documentation. Beyond this is refactoring. All of these would provide > benefit to a programming wanting to get involved in a open-source > project and long-term benefit to programmers already involved. In my > experience not willing to perform code maintenance is equivalent to > not wanting to document code. Hold on here... I was making no statement about the merits of such things (please don't presume that and I don't need any education on the subject). haha. Sorry. I usually presume these mailing lists are self-selecting and only people familiar with the software development process are actually active on them. But I have been wrong in the past.... I am questioning the feasibility of doing this from outside of Apple without visibility into what Apple is currently doing or is planning to do with various segments of the code. Speaking from experience you need much better visibility into such things if you want to do something like this without causing problems to current development and you want acceptance of such code backing into main branches. Well, speaking from experience I've seen companies so worried of performing code-cleanup due to perceived problems the changes would cause that the companies never revisit code. I could argue that the long-term cost of this greatly exceeded the immediate cost of a tricky integration. way to learn a system. If, in doing so, I do something of value I'd hope a reasonable engineer would recognize that and actively work to incorporate that work. If I waited for Apple I think I may wait forever. ;-) A dialog should be started between folks interested and Apple first to establish the feasibility of such a thing, align it with any coding style requirements that Apple has (best if you want Apple to pick it up), etc. before any work begins, otherwise you will likely just be wasting your time. I don't think I'd be wasting my time if my goal is only to learn a system. Any work might never be integrated into the production system though. Still, other open-source systems work by incorporating any work that adds value with the intention of performing continual incremental improvements to migrate questionable but valuable code to solid code within the style guidelines. There is value in this and there is value in insuring all code is added only when it correspond to a given style guidelines. There are cost and benefits processes all along the Evolved<->Designed spectrum. I'd hope the style guidelines Apple likes are already documented somewhere.... -- -Corey O'Connor _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… On 8/28/06, Shawn Erickson <shawnce(a)gmail.com> wrote: I think you make a good point, but I don't think it should stop me. >From my point of view documenting and cleaning up code is an effective This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: MACFORGE request for a project
by almisr 28 Aug '06

28 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com -M Indeed- Darwin isn't your run-of-the-mill open source project. Instead, it's more of a "here's-some-code--the-release-process-is-a- secret" project. It's a one-way street. It is not with this kind of speech that you will do something in your life ... it is an easy answer fortunately that you do not work with me because you would have badly with the buttocks Best Regards {|} _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: MACFORGE request for a project
by almisr 28 Aug '06

28 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On 8/28/06, Shawn Erickson <shawnce(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I don't see the point of doing that... since it quickly becomes a > merge/diff nightmare with existing code branches. It would likely > have to be Apple that took such steps to decide to lock down > development on a segment of the code base to do reformatting (based > on their corporate code standards). The point of cleaning up code is to improve the conceptual mapping from the requirements to the implementation. To me the most basic code-cleanup is reformatting, "K&R removal", variable renaming, and documentation. Beyond this is refactoring. All of these would provide benefit to a programming wanting to get involved in a open-source project and long-term benefit to programmers already involved. In my experience not willing to perform code maintenance is equivalent to not wanting to document code. :) cacahuets code , magical mystery code ... Hold on here... I was making no statement about the merits of such things (please don't presume that and I don't need any education on the subject). I am questioning the feasibility of doing this from outside of Apple without visibility into what Apple is currently doing or is planning to do with various segments of the code. Speaking from experience you need much better visibility into such things if you want to do something like this without causing problems to current development and you want acceptance of such code backing into main branches. A dialog should be started between folks interested and Apple first to establish the feasibility of such a thing, align it with any coding style requirements that Apple has (best if you want Apple to pick it up), etc. before any work begins, otherwise you will likely just be wasting your time. -Shawn _______________ there are many codes which were modified with tricks… sometimes I have the impression to see David Copperfield ... :( and i could say i know very well this exercise :) Best Regards, {|} _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… yep sure my proposal it's to work with the Apple Team/ FreeBSD Team as Team Leader, if you are serious and conscientious ... if I lend the voice of Jordan I could say that for an example the src of ifconfig cmd is a monument to obfuscation :) many parts were not improved correctly but just modified to work and "basta" A Long Time Ago, In A Galaxy Far, Far Away :) while working gradually with beautiful a database , it 's really possible This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: MACFORGE request for a project
by AgentM 28 Aug '06

28 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com -M _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… Indeed- Darwin isn't your run-of-the-mill open source project. Instead, it's more of a "here's-some-code--the-release-process-is-a- secret" project. It's a one-way street. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Re: Re: MACFORGE request for a project
by Shawn Erickson 28 Aug '06

28 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=lCFI+x7QH66pnsJANlE01cUHCuoomkaz/mQ1eJR0cCScBR9XGzb22QJcWUAnsZ4CS54EK10aH+3bhc85UFAZcLZ1tUtEwBOaV7LHevvc8bSy0RdsKda4BVQcbcxaxecds6VJCsB2OOIs9Pwg4lTRCOzcMh/OAnNECgv54v4R384= On 8/28/06, Shawn Erickson <shawnce(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I don't see the point of doing that... since it quickly becomes a > merge/diff nightmare with existing code branches. It would likely > have to be Apple that took such steps to decide to lock down > development on a segment of the code base to do reformatting (based > on their corporate code standards). The point of cleaning up code is to improve the conceptual mapping from the requirements to the implementation. To me the most basic code-cleanup is reformatting, "K&R removal", variable renaming, and documentation. Beyond this is refactoring. All of these would provide benefit to a programming wanting to get involved in a open-source project and long-term benefit to programmers already involved. In my experience not willing to perform code maintenance is equivalent to not wanting to document code. Hold on here... I was making no statement about the merits of such things (please don't presume that and I don't need any education on the subject). I am questioning the feasibility of doing this from outside of Apple without visibility into what Apple is currently doing or is planning to do with various segments of the code. Speaking from experience you need much better visibility into such things if you want to do something like this without causing problems to current development and you want acceptance of such code backing into main branches. A dialog should be started between folks interested and Apple first to establish the feasibility of such a thing, align it with any coding style requirements that Apple has (best if you want Apple to pick it up), etc. before any work begins, otherwise you will likely just be wasting your time. -Shawn _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… On 8/28/06, Corey O'Connor <coreyoconnor(a)gmail.com> wrote: This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Re: MACFORGE request for a project
by Corey O'Connor 28 Aug '06

28 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=dGwp9TaQ8C86sPE2JLeUsF/fJUOfiPcUa33dN7X0Zb1kIXhSeOqBz84FX5vIGkwgLYk477UPUGQwCoJEtoXzr/QHmf4tvi7mQP3M3QaVLz2+9YRV4Q6rDz1TvjwRpIyOhLnmijJ2JIRWE0u8WZdGNmxpqdpxeJ9avZ9k9iGWI+I= I don't see the point of doing that... since it quickly becomes a merge/diff nightmare with existing code branches. It would likely have to be Apple that took such steps to decide to lock down development on a segment of the code base to do reformatting (based on their corporate code standards). The point of cleaning up code is to improve the conceptual mapping from the requirements to the implementation. To me the most basic code-cleanup is reformatting, "K&R removal", variable renaming, and documentation. Beyond this is refactoring. All of these would provide benefit to a programming wanting to get involved in a open-source project and long-term benefit to programmers already involved. In my experience not willing to perform code maintenance is equivalent to not wanting to document code. While I'm unsure a separate project is required, I would love to start getting involved in the Darwin open-source projects though first just improving code readability and documentation. Which is what I think Almisr wants to do. -- -Corey O'Connor _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… On 8/28/06, Shawn Erickson <shawnce(a)gmail.com> wrote: This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: MACFORGE request for a project
by almisr 28 Aug '06

28 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com i would like to open a " K&R removal " project ( Source Clean up ) aka Normalisé where/who ? Which source are you planning to touch? -Shawn For this moment all old BSD base part, system_cmd ecetera you are not obliged to do everything at the same time , and some files "for the modifications" that makes an eternity it is as when you renovate a house , you do not put all in building site and I did this for a big bank company on more than 30 million lines of code and we have advanced the project at the same time and no customer lost a penny ;) Best Regards , {|} _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… I don't see the point of doing that... since it quickly becomes a merge/diff nightmare with existing code branches. It would likely have to be Apple that took such steps to decide to lock down development on a segment of the code base to do reformatting (based on their corporate code standards). Don't forget that the code Apple is working of for Leopard, etc. is likely different in many places from what we have in the 10.4.7 source drop... making formatting changes against this code and attempting to merge that back into what Apple has can be difficult and error prone. -Shawn This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: MACFORGE request for a project
by almisr 28 Aug '06

28 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com i would like to open a " K&R removal " project ( Source Clean up ) aka Normalisé where/who ? Which source are you planning to touch? -Shawn For this moment all old BSD base part, system_cmd ecetera if it's ok new code is released Best Regards , {|} _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… also remove that i call "Cacahuet code" i would like to create : first a db track , where dev put "here" and "here" , i found "Cacahuet code" and K&R after this step the Cleaning Team makes a db of diff , after this step the new code is reviewed and tested This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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