May 2007 - Darwin-dev - lists.apple.com

Re: Fuse
by Ross Tulloch 16 May '07

16 May '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com FYI... <http://www.apple.com/feedback/> Ross. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… About a month ago I logged a feature request for MacFUSE to be added to a future version of the OS. The feature request was quickly closed and I was (politely, I might add) told to submit any further feedback on the issue to: So if you want to keep MacFUSE on Apple's (cough) radar I'd suggest you do the same. It certainly is a very compelling technology and one day I'm sure it'll be ready for prime-time (perhaps with help from Apple!). This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Fuse
by Finlay Dobbie 14 May '07

14 May '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QzZ6LgakkvFP6QO9cCDtdcoIb0M8VAgvpUBPXVJtkmkL8n6feUFP7d6SRMjdUD5zAB/kWPNE2M69mjSP3i4X7OMUE2Qav18M53puv+bRZ21XrxRYZb9GC3pBAqsbp13GFGSEpX3vmK8yqf5cl+n0WUdLdmIr7qCuwwkS0JHSuJM= Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZEW2I1weXqqjV9G/fPaYS09NCWF9+wSAjygSjHJToQ9e1k2vNeNE/SKVeNTkXiWJDXqCLHE1u2YO87fXLYfmIyLGfXS6zHR7p4ABm87AjCXvCmRHdKch+IwZ1mcuEMcR0DFEPYbaZOTUg2zADR7aIdDQfJodl6t40wx/qRAv9+0= It quite arguably is a filesystem. It's just not *a* filesystem but a hook for arbitrary filesystems. Dan, I had hoped that you would keep your pointless semantics arguments to the server lists. You're confusing "filesystem" with "VFS plug-in", but that's hardly surprising. Moreover since it affects the stability of the OS, and isn't anywhere ready for prime time nor is it likely to ever be ready for production, again in part b/c by nature it's a userspace "thingie", this would still be anathema. You do realise that, for example, webdavfs does all its HTTP communication from a userspace daemon? -- Finlay _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… On 14/05/07, Dan Shoop <shoop(a)iwiring.net> wrote: This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Fuse
by Andre-John Mas 14 May '07

14 May '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On 14-May-07, at 12:56 , Dan Shoop wrote: Filipe Cabecinhas On 14 May, 2007, at 07:55, Dan Shoop wrote: If you are interested, there is an interview with Amit Singh here: http://www.itconversations.com/shows/detail1804.html Andre _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… At 9:51 AM +0100 5/14/07, Filipe Cabecinhas wrote: No... Including MacFUSE in Darwin would allow everyone to distribute their filesystems without worrying about having the client install MacFUSE... MacFUSE isn't a filesystem. It's an API to allow people to implement userspace filesystems. Since the goal of FUSE is to be a user space filesystem, as evidenced in it's name, wouldn't including it as a systems filesystem be rather conflicting? It quite arguably is a filesystem. It's just not *a* filesystem but a hook for arbitrary filesystems. Moreover since it affects the stability of the OS, and isn't anywhere ready for prime time nor is it likely to ever be ready for production, again in part b/c by nature it's a userspace "thingie", this would still be anathema. >From what I understand the idea is to remove all the potentially unstable stuff out of kernal space. The kernel driver could then concentrate on being more fault tolerant. If a user space driver crashes, then like an application that's all that goes down. where he discusses MacFuse and why he started the project. Part of the reason he cites is that this approach vastly simplifies the work of writing a reliable file system driver. I mean it's a nice thought, but given that it's supposed to be userspace, that the kernel and core OS are quite clearly kernel- and system-space, that it's not prime time ready, currently and probably always unstable by nature, and always going to be more appropriately implemented at a user level that it doesn't belong as part of the systems. If it did would it not then be MacSUSE? And my, oh my, wouldn't that they get confusing with something else by that name ;) In many ways USB isn't that much different. There are kernel components, but there is also much that is done in user-space. When I asked the question it wasn't so much a question of whether it was ready for prime time. I am more interested, in finding out whether it could have a reasonable place as part of the system architecture, if it got the necessary focus. The development of the MacFuse also shows ways in which Darwin/MacOS X needs improvement. One minor area is in the way that URL handlers are registered with the Finder - they are currently in a form which does not permit extension (see /System/Library/URLMount), so only the standard Apple file systems can benefit from this. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Fuse
by Uli Kusterer 14 May '07

14 May '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.zathras.de _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… On 14.05.2007, at 18:56, Dan Shoop wrote: Moreover since it affects the stability of the OS, and isn't anywhere ready for prime time nor is it likely to ever be ready for production, again in part b/c by nature it's a userspace "thingie", this would still be anathema. Why would you assert that it'll never be ready for production "by nature"??? MacFUSE is a facility to move dangerous code out of the Kernel into user space, where it can't do as much damage. The same way one could demand that the whole connection to user space should be taken out of the Kernel because it doesn't really do anything in the Kernel. I mean it's a nice thought, but given that it's supposed to be userspace, that the kernel and core OS are quite clearly kernel- and system-space, that it's not prime time ready, currently and probably always unstable by nature, and always going to be more appropriately implemented at a user level that it doesn't belong as part of the systems. FUSE *is* the User-Space-Kernel bridge you're looking for. The actual file systems may be a different story, but MacFUSE really is something that should be a Kernel service. It would even improve responsibility on the system. Just look what happens when you mount an FTP server in Finder, or a WebDAV server, and how it pretty much freezes the entire system's file I/O with the spinning beach ball because everyone is waiting for that FTP or DAV call to return, even those that just wanted to know what volumes are available. Don't get me wrong, MacFUSE is great, but it's experimental at best, at least currently. I agree it's pretty new, but flat-out stating it will never be ready for prime-time is arrogant, especially considering who the people working on this thing are, and that they're employed by one of the pickiest employers out there. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Has anyone built Top?
by Ben Byer 14 May '07

14 May '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On May 13, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Jason Rusoff wrote: Like what? Ben _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… Has anyone built the top command line tool? I downloaded it and tried to build from the command line and in a new XCode command line tool project, and both fail. There seem to be quite a few undefined symbols. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Fuse
by Dan Shoop 14 May '07

14 May '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Filipe Cabecinhas On 14 May, 2007, at 07:55, Dan Shoop wrote: -dhan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan Shoop AIM: iWiring Systems & Networks Architect http://www.iwiring.net/ shoop(a)iwiring.net http://www.ustsvs.com/ pgp key fingerprint: FAC0 9434 B5A5 24A8 D0AF 12B1 7840 3BE7 3736 DE0B A: Yes. | Q: Are you sure? | | A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. | | | Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… At 9:51 AM +0100 5/14/07, Filipe Cabecinhas wrote: No... Including MacFUSE in Darwin would allow everyone to distribute their filesystems without worrying about having the client install MacFUSE... MacFUSE isn't a filesystem. It's an API to allow people to implement userspace filesystems. Since the goal of FUSE is to be a user space filesystem, as evidenced in it's name, wouldn't including it as a systems filesystem be rather conflicting? It quite arguably is a filesystem. It's just not *a* filesystem but a hook for arbitrary filesystems. Moreover since it affects the stability of the OS, and isn't anywhere ready for prime time nor is it likely to ever be ready for production, again in part b/c by nature it's a userspace "thingie", this would still be anathema. I mean it's a nice thought, but given that it's supposed to be userspace, that the kernel and core OS are quite clearly kernel- and system-space, that it's not prime time ready, currently and probably always unstable by nature, and always going to be more appropriately implemented at a user level that it doesn't belong as part of the systems. If it did would it not then be MacSUSE? And my, oh my, wouldn't that they get confusing with something else by that name ;) Don't get me wrong, MacFUSE is great, but it's experimental at best, at least currently. -- This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Fuse
by Filipe Cabecinhas 14 May '07

14 May '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id:cc:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=WhBFgv6gl9JWeU+NwVoibeG5KxliGcT2/cTqy9F1hDurUO0OvPVVhHAdLE4LTNxIITV4z8l00qaqjGnS6rsTrrgZ4IyDFz4IDJsUr5eiELgQs5Y4tyWGQ3TVUCImNB8P95r9QVicuvYZpnJwnpRXuan0EKh+AfnXRfqM1K4/CNs= Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id:cc:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=E6+eA0IP+ruiseIy3F9cmFIrdq8XTgdxrbOh9SL0FTPlSnn80CBEdxnk1CYPJ9WrPSLLo5aYDmSF8tP+KO5x+KdFNtxuSCxxXPwPdoN7mCbAkG/7XSeCgq0UcaNogBekWLgyAYxaY3h7PPtlP6Yiuvl6Ms+EdIEDB36QWXR2yGY= Filipe Cabecinhas On 14 May, 2007, at 07:55, Dan Shoop wrote: _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… No... Including MacFUSE in Darwin would allow everyone to distribute their filesystems without worrying about having the client install MacFUSE... MacFUSE isn't a filesystem. It's an API to allow people to implement userspace filesystems. Since the goal of FUSE is to be a user space filesystem, as evidenced in it's name, wouldn't including it as a systems filesystem be rather conflicting? -- -dhan This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Fuse
by Dan Shoop 14 May '07

14 May '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Hi, The MacFuse project ( http://code.google.com/p/macfuse/ ) has come a long way to making user-space filesystems accessible to Darwin/MacOS X. Would making MacFuse part of the core Darwin feature set, along with having file systems such as DAV being based on this, be considered an advantage to the system? -dhan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan Shoop AIM: iWiring Systems & Networks Architect http://www.ustsvs.com/ shoop(a)iwiring.net http://www.iwiring.net/ _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… At 11:17 AM -0400 5/13/07, Andre-John Mas wrote: Since the goal of FUSE is to be a user space filesystem, as evidenced in it's name, wouldn't including it as a systems filesystem be rather conflicting? -- This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Has anyone built Top?
by Thomas Inskip 14 May '07

14 May '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id:cc:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=j0kyrc8Gs/Z4q0GngcqlES6q35g91HVczC1/aT9ET3zdXrOSUJSIGPvzjAmqz+M0KT5/b1+Bqb63k4rKfilXTEsjHfixG5rxknZkH37qzNftpxVjydX5qmL+GHL2tHGH934YQ+9am+6php2Db3IcSNtUb56ckK6zEGYnCsPmpWM= Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id:cc:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=toCkpcESMLQC5jyo4yRwx9/5TFdVAPi3WciJ4Fpua+jIwDSx/Lbu9ZMV5OV1YLuAyX78IYb5Ydh3A0CSwyDk/0q+/eyWjLrqoRLmtqlRHUhPAmnLEP9UbH0oHC1iJ/aVmGP3Cvm6RhcsQgRiZE8DUcs8T18wrDgdCePykO3GtOY= On May 14, 2007, at 12:26 AM, Jason Rusoff wrote: _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… I recently built top-17.4 (<http://www.opensource.apple.com/ darwinsource/tarballs/apsl/top-17.4.tar.gz>) from the command line using make with no problems, just a few warnings. The included Xcode project does appear to be broken, though. It is missing some framework (CoreFoundation, IOKit) and other dynamic (panel, curses) libraries. If you add those, it should be fine. The make command needs to be run as root (sudo make), because it sets the final binary's owner to root, as well as the set-user-id-on- execution bit. So if you build the executable via xCode you will still have to do those last two steps manually afaik. Has anyone built the top command line tool? I downloaded it and tried to build from the command line and in a new XCode command line tool project, and both fail. There seem to be quite a few undefined symbols. Is there some other file that defines a bunch of symbols for lots of tools? I don't know how else to tackle this, and running top in the debugger seems to be the most sensible way to follow how it gets and displays info on process memory usage. Getting the memory usage for a process is turning out to be a royal pain in the butt. Jason This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Has anyone built Top?
by Jason Rusoff 14 May '07

14 May '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Has anyone built the top command line tool? I downloaded it and tried to build from the command line and in a new XCode command line tool project, and both fail. There seem to be quite a few undefined symbols. Is there some other file that defines a bunch of symbols for lots of tools? I don't know how else to tackle this, and running top in the debugger seems to be the most sensible way to follow how it gets and displays info on process memory usage. Getting the memory usage for a process is turning out to be a royal pain in the butt. Jason _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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