October 2007 - Darwin-kernel

Re: Leopard Sources?
by William Kucharski 30 Oct '07

30 Oct '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com User-agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070802) Michael Tuexen wrote: William Kucharski kucharsk(a)mac.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… There are many things in the kernel sources which are not meant for public viewing, and must first be removed. Once a new version has been posted and Could you give me an example of what kind of stuff "must first be removed"? the sources are subsequently available for download, the mailing list has been notified immediately thereafter, reliably. The irony is that in PPC days the kernel was fully open sourced and it was only various libraries, such as the ones having to deal with DVDs, that were closed source. I suspect since the switch to Intel, Intel has provided various proprietary drivers and board support code that Apple can't/won't release. Also, graphics drivers probably qualify both on PPC and Intel as ATI and NVidia are both pretty protective. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Leopard Sources?
by Michael Tuexen 29 Oct '07

29 Oct '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Hi Shaun, just a question in-line. Best regards Michael On Oct 30, 2007, at 12:31 AM, Shaun Wexler wrote: On Oct 27, 2007, at 7:35 AM, Andreas Fink wrote: _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… Anyone have an idea when Leopard kernel sources will be available? How about rephrasing your question, "Will the Darwin 9 sources be made available ASAP?" I was once promised much sooner than the intel ones. However I don't see 10.4.10 yet neither so I take this promise as vaporware (but would be very pleased if I'm wrong). Still can't understand the delays as there should be none per definition of open source. My development is 99% blocked because of this. Sources are a MUST in this case. There are many things in the kernel sources which are not meant for public viewing, and must first be removed. Once a new version has been posted and Could you give me an example of what kind of stuff "must first be removed"? the sources are subsequently available for download, the mailing list has been notified immediately thereafter, reliably. -- Shaun Wexler MacFOH http://www.macfoh.com "I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer." -- Douglas Adams _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/michael.tuexen% 40lurchi.franken.de This email sent to michael.tuexen(a)lurchi.franken.de This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Leopard Sources?
by Shaun Wexler 29 Oct '07

29 Oct '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com On Oct 27, 2007, at 7:35 AM, Andreas Fink wrote: _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Anyone have an idea when Leopard kernel sources will be available? How about rephrasing your question, "Will the Darwin 9 sources be made available ASAP?" I was once promised much sooner than the intel ones. However I don't see 10.4.10 yet neither so I take this promise as vaporware (but would be very pleased if I'm wrong). Still can't understand the delays as there should be none per definition of open source. My development is 99% blocked because of this. Sources are a MUST in this case. There are many things in the kernel sources which are not meant for public viewing, and must first be removed. Once a new version has been posted and the sources are subsequently available for download, the mailing list has been notified immediately thereafter, reliably. -- Shaun Wexler MacFOH http://www.macfoh.com "I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer." -- Douglas Adams smime.p7s

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Re: Leopard Sources?
by Michael Tuexen 29 Oct '07

29 Oct '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Hi Terry, done. Bug ID is 5566399. I uploaded a snap of the NKE which implements SCTP such you can see which functions needs to be accessible. I would be happy to work on the SCTP NKE such that only a supported API is used. Any statements regarding the possibility of using Dtrace in NKEs? Best regards Michael On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:48 PM, Terry Lambert wrote: File a request for a general API and post the radar # here. -- Terry Hi Garth, Thank you very much for your help in advance. Best regards Michael On Oct 29, 2007, at 5:46 PM, Garth Cummings wrote: Hi Andreas, On Oct 27, 2007, at 7:43 AM, Alexander von Below wrote: --gc ____________________________________________________________________ Garth Cummings gcummings(a)apple.com Sr. Software Engineer Apple Developer Technical Support <http://developer.apple.com/technicalsupport> This email sent to michael.tuexen(a)lurchi.franken.de _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:47 AM, Michael Tuexen <Michael.Tuexen(a)lurchi.franken.de> wrote: I had hope that mailing to DTS would be a way to get some header files of the Leopard kernel sources. We can not even compile the SCTP NKE without them, no to think about testing. I know that we should be using a supported API and we have to accept some consequences when not doing so. But there is currently no supported API which would allow us to build a transport layer on top of IPv[46] and below the socket layer. And I do understand Apple that it might not want to spend the time/effort for providing this functionality, since I would see currently only SCTP and DCCP implementations using this interface. And the current unsupported interface of Panther and Tiger was good enough. Your suggestion on filing an enhancement request is interesting. I filed one a long time ago to add #define IPPROTO_SCTP 132 in /usr/include/netinet/in.h This change is trivial, part of the FreeBSD code base and I see no way how this could result in a problem. However, this change was never accepted for Tiger or Leopard. So I doubt that the above API extension would happen. Maybe I'm too pessimistic. So how can we progress getting the SCTP stack running on Leopard? Can't we do more than just waiting until someday the complete sources are released? I'm willing to sign additional NDAs or think about what Apple think is necessary. While we are at it: SCTP supports a very nice and attractive mobility concept: Transport Layer Mobility. So it would be *very* interesting to have an SCTP stack on the iPhone which supports this mobility concept. Is there any way to get the possibility on porting the NKE to the iPhone? And there is a last question I have: Can we use DTrace for function boundary tracing of an NKE? I tried to build a dummy SCTP stack (just a loadable NKE which registers a dummy sctp_input() function). But I can not see it in sudo dtrace -l My development is 99% blocked because of this. Sources are a MUST in this case. My suggestion would be to file a DTS incident in this case. If the idea is to try another channel to get the sources, please don't submit a DTS incident. There is nothing DTS can do to help get you the sources. If you suspect there's a supported KPI to do what you want, DTS can definitely help with that. If you need the sources because your product relies on private APIs, I trust you've filed an enhancement request asking for a supported way to do what you need. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/ michael.tuexen%40lurchi.franken.de _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/tlambert% 40apple.com This email sent to tlambert(a)apple.com This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Leopard Sources?
by Terry Lambert 29 Oct '07

29 Oct '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com File a request for a general API and post the radar # here. -- Terry Hi Garth, Thank you very much for your help in advance. Best regards Michael On Oct 29, 2007, at 5:46 PM, Garth Cummings wrote: Hi Andreas, On Oct 27, 2007, at 7:43 AM, Alexander von Below wrote: --gc ____________________________________________________________________ Garth Cummings gcummings(a)apple.com Sr. Software Engineer Apple Developer Technical Support <http://developer.apple.com/technicalsupport> _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/michael.tuexen%40lurch… This email sent to michael.tuexen(a)lurchi.franken.de _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/tlambert%40apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… On Oct 29, 2007, at 10:47 AM, Michael Tuexen <Michael.Tuexen(a)lurchi.franken.de > wrote: I had hope that mailing to DTS would be a way to get some header files of the Leopard kernel sources. We can not even compile the SCTP NKE without them, no to think about testing. I know that we should be using a supported API and we have to accept some consequences when not doing so. But there is currently no supported API which would allow us to build a transport layer on top of IPv[46] and below the socket layer. And I do understand Apple that it might not want to spend the time/effort for providing this functionality, since I would see currently only SCTP and DCCP implementations using this interface. And the current unsupported interface of Panther and Tiger was good enough. Your suggestion on filing an enhancement request is interesting. I filed one a long time ago to add #define IPPROTO_SCTP 132 in /usr/include/netinet/in.h This change is trivial, part of the FreeBSD code base and I see no way how this could result in a problem. However, this change was never accepted for Tiger or Leopard. So I doubt that the above API extension would happen. Maybe I'm too pessimistic. So how can we progress getting the SCTP stack running on Leopard? Can't we do more than just waiting until someday the complete sources are released? I'm willing to sign additional NDAs or think about what Apple think is necessary. While we are at it: SCTP supports a very nice and attractive mobility concept: Transport Layer Mobility. So it would be *very* interesting to have an SCTP stack on the iPhone which supports this mobility concept. Is there any way to get the possibility on porting the NKE to the iPhone? And there is a last question I have: Can we use DTrace for function boundary tracing of an NKE? I tried to build a dummy SCTP stack (just a loadable NKE which registers a dummy sctp_input() function). But I can not see it in sudo dtrace -l My development is 99% blocked because of this. Sources are a MUST in this case. My suggestion would be to file a DTS incident in this case. If the idea is to try another channel to get the sources, please don't submit a DTS incident. There is nothing DTS can do to help get you the sources. If you suspect there's a supported KPI to do what you want, DTS can definitely help with that. If you need the sources because your product relies on private APIs, I trust you've filed an enhancement request asking for a supported way to do what you need. This email sent to tlambert(a)apple.com This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Leopard Sources?
by Michael Tuexen 29 Oct '07

29 Oct '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Hi Garth, I know that we should be using a supported API and we have to accept some consequences when not doing so. But there is currently no supported API which would allow us to build a transport layer on top of IPv[46] and below the socket layer. And I do understand Apple that it might not want to spend the time/effort for providing this functionality, since I would see currently only SCTP and DCCP implementations using this interface. And the current unsupported interface of Panther and Tiger was good enough. Your suggestion on filing an enhancement request is interesting. I filed one a long time ago to add #define IPPROTO_SCTP 132 in /usr/include/netinet/in.h This change is trivial, part of the FreeBSD code base and I see no way how this could result in a problem. However, this change was never accepted for Tiger or Leopard. So I doubt that the above API extension would happen. Maybe I'm too pessimistic. Thank you very much for your help in advance. Best regards Michael On Oct 29, 2007, at 5:46 PM, Garth Cummings wrote: Hi Andreas, On Oct 27, 2007, at 7:43 AM, Alexander von Below wrote: --gc ____________________________________________________________________ Garth Cummings gcummings(a)apple.com Sr. Software Engineer Apple Developer Technical Support <http://developer.apple.com/technicalsupport> This email sent to michael.tuexen(a)lurchi.franken.de _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… I had hope that mailing to DTS would be a way to get some header files of the Leopard kernel sources. We can not even compile the SCTP NKE without them, no to think about testing. So how can we progress getting the SCTP stack running on Leopard? Can't we do more than just waiting until someday the complete sources are released? I'm willing to sign additional NDAs or think about what Apple think is necessary. While we are at it: SCTP supports a very nice and attractive mobility concept: Transport Layer Mobility. So it would be *very* interesting to have an SCTP stack on the iPhone which supports this mobility concept. Is there any way to get the possibility on porting the NKE to the iPhone? And there is a last question I have: Can we use DTrace for function boundary tracing of an NKE? I tried to build a dummy SCTP stack (just a loadable NKE which registers a dummy sctp_input() function). But I can not see it in sudo dtrace -l My development is 99% blocked because of this. Sources are a MUST in this case. My suggestion would be to file a DTS incident in this case. If the idea is to try another channel to get the sources, please don't submit a DTS incident. There is nothing DTS can do to help get you the sources. If you suspect there's a supported KPI to do what you want, DTS can definitely help with that. If you need the sources because your product relies on private APIs, I trust you've filed an enhancement request asking for a supported way to do what you need. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/michael.tuexen% 40lurchi.franken.de This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Leopard Sources?
by Garth Cummings 29 Oct '07

29 Oct '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Hi Andreas, On Oct 27, 2007, at 7:43 AM, Alexander von Below wrote: --gc ____________________________________________________________________ Garth Cummings gcummings(a)apple.com Sr. Software Engineer Apple Developer Technical Support <http://developer.apple.com/technicalsupport> _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… My development is 99% blocked because of this. Sources are a MUST in this case. My suggestion would be to file a DTS incident in this case. If the idea is to try another channel to get the sources, please don't submit a DTS incident. There is nothing DTS can do to help get you the sources. If you suspect there's a supported KPI to do what you want, DTS can definitely help with that. If you need the sources because your product relies on private APIs, I trust you've filed an enhancement request asking for a supported way to do what you need. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Leopard Sources?
by mm w 28 Oct '07

28 Oct '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=xCcliYvE//BYE54anKYaaIHg8/kcJvSlSEyzXb0gguA=; b=frpH53oeHsFX7nAexlR533oQ9W5isy4NlKWb5wHUZEd5PRfqaleAMi9aJ5RtSUVbSM7nvETqPt5qwS+rFscVXOE4eCEmKtCjbatxlqaxeceuSfHDwF5qai/Dorz1BXzqWvJhfb53WmhLHIifypbQJIIlPZecYHzoGylDDJjmOtM= Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=KTuO+F4LtxZiTB/8AjW1tAlnClZzVbFeorUSI5U9XSpZcf7VzinAQYuwnVVmJf7zGCFYVf1Wbt7NXDqqeM0f1GxKFKRbgIG+hEiMjiXxNkLdkFiUHDre4fnXYWfTzgUGlObFm5S/mvZBmfEYYjhcjtFxNGMRfnB8T2qCavkUmnQ= I 'm just back from the University ave, and I finished configuring my new laptop :), yes pay for testing is quite strange..., but i could say in this story, Solaris doesn't challenge directly the MS desktop, Mac OSX does, i don't think the situation is so bad :) opendarwin should have been the second tree, but people decided to drop the project and succumb to the first difficulty, APSL is not so bad, the license is just not regular or predictable :), at least OpenSolaris is a model in terms of "code" and reactivity... there's a lot of people motivated by this project (since a long time now), but the only opportunity to participe to this "open source project" is to submit RADARS... it's really not fairplay :), "macosforge" is an "apple's vista" success :) -mmw On 10/27/07, Andrew Gallatin <gallatin(a)cs.duke.edu> wrote: > > > having it, and to kick out their shiny XServes and put some lousy =20 > > Sun's into their racks just because Apple can't adopt SCTP, and gives =20= > > I agree with everything you say. However, please don't denegrate Sun. > At least via OpenSolaris, the Sun development process is transparent. > Granted, it is somewhat byzantine by tranditional Open Source > standards, but at least 3rd party developers have access to the > development source and the revision control system. Contrast this to > the Apple "Top Secret, everthing under NDA, pay us $500 to try the > binary" model. Not to mention that Solaris blows the doors off of > Darwin on the same hardware... > > > Drew > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/openspecies%40gmail.com > > This email sent to openspecies(a)gmail.com > -- echo zapydapntpd.rxltw@nzx | tr a-z@. p-za-o.@ _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Changing the screencapture format
by mm w 28 Oct '07

28 Oct '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=9qiye0zSRTEuD01wixQphfzJScwqSLYY2cWALCfoPuM=; b=fX4iSdPeWLk0yeHfkZEfnUOwNj7iP6AEHXSqfAT2JVmMNPvI2dpqe6O2abq2dsb7h29CBYED6tuaBjBSrawW0VLK2EDOqbNdnswJ7MROnsH5A5JlUQoJJNe2D0E1EIXZG1iVf+g4kSY0bhtxKIDANQn50OIj1DWcm2QUZUhnTQs= Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=KIygsaTlo9I804TnJceV7AkzQL29wvPMeUoe/M2h9fDbTFgSOAXFscFl2u6r7KoS62LRaD3s6s+vvC5oqtR60joHejrS4P0QYK3559xMT6oO2m+0agEJu4y1kC/D7TdNW/f7aKP2/QGzL9f5TQRN2az0EK29fNbCXIT/VZZau4o= ?jpg is not an interlaced "Progressive JPEG" format, there are many command line tools like sips, libjpeg cmd tools, or imagemagick to change the format or resize a simple image ..., i don't quite understand your email buddy? what? screencapture -S -x -C -tjpg /tmp/test1.jpg works well -mmw On 10/27/07, Hector Martinez <saghster(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > > Hey you need see this pics in the web, check your path, well then use > photoshop for change the format.. > or any editor, because Gim is good , in Paint have the problem, well you > choice you better program for change the format... > Greeting. > Hector Martinez > IT Computer Science > > FreeSource > phone:(591)-4-4454552 > cell: 76416381 > postal code:1076 > Cochabamba-Bolivia > > > ----- Ursprüngliche Mail ---- > Von: Mike <lists(a)michael-amorose.com> > An: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com > Gesendet: Freitag, den 26. Oktober 2007, 19:06:57 Uhr > Betreff: Changing the screencapture format > > The man page for screencapture says that the default file format is png > but that it can be changed with the -t option. However, when I try to > change it to, say, .jpg, it doesn't work. Here is my code from the > command-line: > > screencapture -S -x -C -t jpg /tmp/test1.jpg > > Any ideas how to change the file format? > > Thanks, > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/saghster%40yahoo.de > > This email sent to saghster(a)yahoo.de > > > ________________________________ > Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? Versuchen Sie´s > mit dem neuen Yahoo! Mail. > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/openspecies%40gmail.com > > This email sent to openspecies(a)gmail.com > -- echo zapydapntpd.rxltw@nzx | tr a-z@. p-za-o.@ _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Leopard Sources?
by Andrew Gallatin 27 Oct '07

27 Oct '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com > having it, and to kick out their shiny XServes and put some lousy =20 > Sun's into their racks just because Apple can't adopt SCTP, and gives =20= I agree with everything you say. However, please don't denegrate Sun. At least via OpenSolaris, the Sun development process is transparent. Granted, it is somewhat byzantine by tranditional Open Source standards, but at least 3rd party developers have access to the development source and the revision control system. Contrast this to the Apple "Top Secret, everthing under NDA, pay us $500 to try the binary" model. Not to mention that Solaris blows the doors off of Darwin on the same hardware... Drew _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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