August 2013 - colorsync-users

i1Profiler linearization
by David Wollmann 06 Aug '13

06 Aug '13

Hi, does anyone know if there is a way to see a curves graph of the linearization measurements when using i1profiler? I'd also like to average the readings from two separate targets or at least be able to take more readings per patch. Can this be done with i1Profiler? I'm building a profile for a solvent printer. I have printed two linearization targets and want to average those readings. I can't find a way to view any of the data or compare any of the data for linearization with i1Profiler. I'm using version 1.5 Thank you, David

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Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 179
by Mike Strickler 05 Aug '13

05 Aug '13

Though I don't sell it, Colorburst Overdrive makes exclusive use of printer mfr RGB media sets, no CMYK or CMYKn. EFI eXpress or Fiery XF (which I do sell) have embedded RGB drivers for a number of models. I have not made a survey of all the RIPs that have RGB drivers. One requirement is that the printer model actually has RGB input. This is the case for all the "photo" printers from Epson, Canon, HP. Production printers (Mutoh, Mimaki, Roland, HP Scitex, VUTEk, Durst, et al) typically have no RGB input .and one must drive them with a RIP in CMYK or CMYKn. My shopping advice: All RIPs that use RGB output are using the same maufacturer-written drivers, so base your decision on other features and price. RIPS, especially for fine-art and signage applications, are mainly about productivity and not color, and this extends to RGB printing as well. (Please no deluge of claims from RIP mfrs on superior color from their CM engines, or about proofing--or begin a new thread for it!) Mike Strickler MSP Graphic Services > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2013 10:30:22 -1000 > From: Ron Haake <ron(a)colorwaveimaging.com> > To: colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com, > colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 178 > Message-ID: <etPan.51feb9de.238e1f29.b1ed(a)Time-Bandit.local> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Care to name names of the RIP or RIPs that fit your description, Mike? > Thanks, > Ron > > On August 4, 2013 at 9:02:32 AM, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com (colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com) wrote: > > The HP driver's media sets work very well, and profiling on top of them gets excellent results. HP's black and gray inks are, unlike Epsons, quite neutral, and this lends itself to extremely aggressive GCR, which is applied behind the scenes. With Grayscale images or even RGB grays the GCR is 100% and they are processed with black and gray inks only. When matte media are selected the matte black and 2 grays are used but also the photo black ink, which being slightly less dense on matter media serves as a dark gray, so it's a quad-tone. Pretty elegant. On the other hand the Z31/3200 are not driven so nicely by some third-party RIPs: gamut is smaller, with less smooth boundaries. The best solution, I've found, is to use a RIP that has incorporated the HP RGB driver; then one has all the productivity of a RIP (nesting, tiling, hotfolders and multiple print queues, foolproof color presets, etc.) plus the superior screening and color output of the RGB driver. Inside the RIP one still must select the media type as in HP's driver. The same approach can be used with some Epson and Canon models--many RIPs now are including RGB drivers. > > Mike Strickler > MSP Graphic Services > > ------------------------------

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Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 166
by Millers' Photography L.L.C. 05 Aug '13

05 Aug '13

Hi Neil. I don't think what I am writing is part of your issue. I use custom .icc profiles I create on my own. I refuse to use canned profiles! Cheers David B. Miller On Aug 1, 2013, at 12:00 PM, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com wrote: > > From: Neil Steinberg <software(a)photowork.net> > Subject: Epson 7900 and iMac > Date: August 1, 2013 10:34:58 AM PDT > To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > > > I am having issues achieving color accuracy from files as viewed on an iMac 27" monitor and printed on an Epson 7900. I am running OS 10.7.5, and calibrate with a Spyder Pro 4 device. I am printing on Hahnemuhle papers using the ICC profiles provided by Hahnemuhle. I have tried printing using the Epson driver, ImagePrint RIP, and ColorBurst Overdrive RIP, all with varying results. When printing with the Epson driver, I allow Photoshop to control the printer, choose the appropriate profile and opt for Relative Colorimetric. Using either of the RIPs, I allow the software "printer" to control the output, also opting for Relative Colorimetric. (I have experimented with Perceptual, but this does not improve the output.) In the past I had superior results from an Apple cinema display, calibrated with an iOne device, and printing to an Epson 4000 using the same papers with appropriate profiles. As a check, to see if the Spyder device is defective, I have also tried calibrating using the Apple system display preferences, but do not see a radical difference. Any suggestions? Thanks for your help. > > Neil Steinberg >

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Re: HP Z31/3200 RGB Driver
by Mike Strickler 04 Aug '13

04 Aug '13

Yes, not all matte media; it's the fine-art types--no one wil likely miss quad-tone output for bond paper. Yes, everyone should read the instructons. It's not just the gray replacement that RIPs can botch; it's also the light ink handling in general. You can get puddling on certain media even at modest total ink limits owing to excessive light-ink ouput. If it's a contone CMYK driver one has no access to the light inks and cannot control the problem. The necessary low TILs severely constrict the gamut in dark colors. MS On Aug 4, 2013, at 11:34 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote: > Very true. For example the Wasatch Softrip makes a mess of this N-color inkset. Worst black generation I have seen. One should not call Qimage Ultimate a RIP but it is an excellent companion for the HP driver. > > The MK-PK-Grey-LightGrey ink neutral spine is used in only a few of the media presets, among them the one for HP Matte Litho-Realistic paper. > On some matte papers the PK is not used, on bond qualities one of the grey inks is taken out as well. Link load reduction in steps. Best thing; this all is described in HP docs. > > Ernst, op de lei getypt. > > Mike Strickler <info(a)mspgraphics.com> wrote: > >> The HP driver's media sets work very well, and profiling on top of them gets excellent results. HP's black and gray inks are, unlike Epsons, quite neutral, and this lends itself to extremely aggressive GCR, which is applied behind the scenes. With Grayscale images or even RGB grays the GCR is 100% and they are processed with black and gray inks only. When matte media are selected the matte black and 2 grays are used but also the photo black ink, which being slightly less dense on matter media serves as a dark gray, so it's a quad-tone. Pretty elegant. On the other hand the Z31/3200 are not driven so nicely by some third-party RIPs: gamut is smaller, with less smooth boundaries. The best solution, I've found, is to use a RIP that has incorporated the HP RGB driver; then one has all the productivity of a RIP (nesting, tiling, hotfolders and multiple print queues, foolproof color presets, etc.) plus the superior screening and color output of the RGB driver. Inside the RIP one still must select the media type as in HP's driver. The same approach can be used with some Epson and Canon models--many RIPs now are including RGB drivers. >> >> Mike Strickler >> MSP Graphic Services >> >>>

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Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 178
by Ron Haake 04 Aug '13

04 Aug '13

Care to name names of the RIP or RIPs that fit your description, Mike? Thanks, Ron On August 4, 2013 at 9:02:32 AM, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com (colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com) wrote: The HP driver's media sets work very well, and profiling on top of them gets excellent results. HP's black and gray inks are, unlike Epsons, quite neutral, and this lends itself to extremely aggressive GCR, which is applied behind the scenes. With Grayscale images or even RGB grays the GCR is 100% and they are processed with black and gray inks only. When matte media are selected the matte black and 2 grays are used but also the photo black ink, which being slightly less dense on matter media serves as a dark gray, so it's a quad-tone. Pretty elegant. On the other hand the Z31/3200 are not driven so nicely by some third-party RIPs: gamut is smaller, with less smooth boundaries. The best solution, I've found, is to use a RIP that has incorporated the HP RGB driver; then one has all the productivity of a RIP (nesting, tiling, hotfolders and multiple print queues, foolproof color presets, etc.) plus the superior screening and color output of the RGB driver. Inside the RIP one still must select the media type as in HP's driver. The same approach can be used with some Epson and Canon models--many RIPs now are including RGB drivers. Mike Strickler MSP Graphic Services

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Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 177
by Mike Strickler 04 Aug '13

04 Aug '13

The HP driver's media sets work very well, and profiling on top of them gets excellent results. HP's black and gray inks are, unlike Epsons, quite neutral, and this lends itself to extremely aggressive GCR, which is applied behind the scenes. With Grayscale images or even RGB grays the GCR is 100% and they are processed with black and gray inks only. When matte media are selected the matte black and 2 grays are used but also the photo black ink, which being slightly less dense on matter media serves as a dark gray, so it's a quad-tone. Pretty elegant. On the other hand the Z31/3200 are not driven so nicely by some third-party RIPs: gamut is smaller, with less smooth boundaries. The best solution, I've found, is to use a RIP that has incorporated the HP RGB driver; then one has all the productivity of a RIP (nesting, tiling, hotfolders and multiple print queues, foolproof color presets, etc.) plus the superior screening and color output of the RGB driver. Inside the RIP one still must select the media type as in HP's driver. The same approach can be used with some Epson and Canon models--many RIPs now are including RGB drivers. Mike Strickler MSP Graphic Services > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2013 00:25:01 +0200 > From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla(a)onsneteindhoven.nl> > To: Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center > <spinnakerphotoimagingcenter(a)dnmillerphoto.com>, > Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 166 > Message-ID: <51FD833D.30101(a)onsneteindhoven.nl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > > On the HP Z3100-3200: HP has documents on the inks used with different > media presets + the ink limits per media preset for the normal OEM > driver. There are also documents which media presets to use for third > party media. You can create a custom media preset based on an OEM one > and make slight changes on the ink load + drying time etc. and then > calibrate the third party paper + make the profile. Non-inkjet papers > can be used as well, the Arches falls in that category I guess. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ has a map in the > Files with several docs on the subject. >

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Re: HP Profiles
by Mike Strickler 03 Aug '13

03 Aug '13

David, Roger: Are you referring to CMYK profiles for these printers, using a RIP, or just RGB profiles using the HP driver and media presets? I see nothing special in HP's off-the-shelf profiles, and one can usually squeeze a bit of extra accuracy by a custom profile, if properly made. Some profiing apps may not do such a great job compressing out-of-gamut colors (i1P is excellent in this regard), but otherwise there's not much to it. On the other hand, driving the Z31/3200 through a RIP as a CMYK or CMYKRGB device is worthy of a book. Summary: HP's own under-the-hood separations of RGB into the 11 printer channels is superior: The gamut is larger, the gamut boundaries smoother, the light ink handling better. Choosing the media type closest to the material being used (HP Instant Dry Gloss is nest for most photo media) and making an RGB profile on top of this will give optimal results, and certainly more accurate than using the stock profiles. Mike Strickler MSP Graphic Services > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2013 11:36:52 -0700 > From: "Millers' Photography L.L.C." <digitalimaging(a)dnmillerphoto.com> > To: Roger Breton <graxx(a)videotron.ca> > Cc: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 166 > Message-ID: <F8D86A24-28F3-48DA-9185-6E5B9110F700(a)dnmillerphoto.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Roger, > > Some profiles are non existent for what I print to. Well, maybe they are and I have not searched for them. Example would be the Arches cold press watercolor paper 140 gsm…. The notecard material I use for client's notecards. > > The Epson Signature Worthy Series marketed by Epson just might be what you mean. I use the Epson Pro 9900 printer and canned profiles are available. Still, I do my own .icc custom profiles for this serious of papers. > > I use two Moab watercolor papers, and there are canned profiles for them. And the Anasazi canvas. For these three substrates I do my own custom .icc profiles. > > i1Profiler with version "D" i1Pro spectrophotometer is used for profiling. Assuming with my non-color science background, these tools are the best I can do. I will appreciate any and all suggestions aimed at me! > > What tools and instruments are you using? > > David > >

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Re: Proof Colors in Photoshop
by Chris Cox 03 Aug '13

03 Aug '13

For proofing you should be using Absolute Colorimetric, or RelCol with BPC turned off. On 8/1/13 12:00 PM, "colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > many thanks for your answer. I tried the profile conversion before I posted > my question but it seems that I cannot imitate the "simulate black Ink" > feature of the soft proof by this method. If I use rel col the contrast is > much too high compared to the soft proof. With perceptual rendering the > contrast looks more similar but is still a little too high. Would you > recommend to use the curves tool to adjust the black values of the converted > image or is there any other trick?

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Re: Proof Colors in Photoshop
by Mike Strickler 02 Aug '13

02 Aug '13

Right: Lab is a very unintuitve space to work in for most people. Of course you can get used to almost anything. Mike Strickler MSP Graphic Services info(a)mspgraphics.com www.mspgraphics.com Rick Gordon wrote: > Any comments on the potential downside of just going from ACR direct to Lab, and archiving in Lab? Due to the way Lab is typically integer-encoded, there are portions of its gamut that get clipped, so it is not a panacea. In contrast to some popular pundits, my belief is that Lab is not a good color-editing space. As Andrew said, Lab is hugely oversold. It is good for some things, but not everything, so educate yourself. Bruce -- Bruce J. Lindbloom bruce(a)brucelindbloom.com http://www.brucelindbloom.com

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Re: Proof Colors in Photoshop
by Bruce J. Lindbloom 02 Aug '13

02 Aug '13

Rick Gordon wrote: >Any comments on the potential downside of just going from ACR direct to Lab, and archiving in Lab? Due to the way Lab is typically integer-encoded, there are portions of its gamut that get clipped, so it is not a panacea. In contrast to some popular pundits, my belief is that Lab is not a good color-editing space. As Andrew said, Lab is hugely oversold. It is good for some things, but not everything, so educate yourself. Bruce -- Bruce J. Lindbloom bruce(a)brucelindbloom.com http://www.brucelindbloom.com

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