January 2020 - colorsync-users

Re: basICColor Back on Track
by David Wollmann 11 Jan '20

11 Jan '20

Happy to see and now use this new update and release of basICColor Display 6. David Wollmann > On Jan 10, 2020, at 9:00 AM, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com> wrote: > > From: Iliah Borg <iliah.i.borg(a)gmail.com <mailto:iliah.i.borg@gmail.com>> > > Dear Ladies and Gentlemen: > > Here is from basICColor press release: > > "... Karl Koch and Franz Herbert have teamed up to develop new and improved versions of essential professional color management software under the brand name basICColor: > > basICColor display: The monitor calibration and profiling solution, the basICColor display software has been rewritten from the ground up with many improvements. > > display 6 will be officially released Q1 2020, a pre-release version of display 6 for macOS can be purchased now. > > The Windows version will be ready in time for the official release date. > > Upgrades are available for owners of basICColor display 5. > > basICColor input: generates highly superior DCP and ICC profiles for digital cameras. The much improved basICColor input 6 will be released at the start of COLOR20 in San Diego (11 -14 January 2020) in 3 versions: > > ? basICColor input 6 > > ? basICColor input 6 Pro > > ? basICColor inputRAW 6 > > Pre-release versions are available today. Upgrades are available for owners of earlier basICColor input 5. > > basICColor cockpit: the most universal software for color correct viewing and converting of color images of all sorts ? from raw to spectral!" > > Contact: > > Ingenieurbuero Dipl.-Ing. Karl Koch > > Maistrasse 18 > > D82377 Penzberg > > Germany > > info(a)basiccolor.de <mailto:info@basiccolor.de> > > -- > Best regards, > Iliah Borg > LibRaw, LLC > www.libraw.org <http://www.libraw.org/> > www.rawdigger.com <http://www.rawdigger.com/> > www.fastrawviewer.com <http://www.fastrawviewer.com/>

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Re: Humans (and cameras and scanners) do not have a color gamut (?)
by andrew＠digitaldog.net 11 Jan '20

11 Jan '20

I used to go with ColorFlow.... Andrew > On Jan 11, 2020, at 12:15 PM, edmund ronald via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: >

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RE: Humans (and cameras and scanners) do not have a color gamut (?)
by Rich Wagner 11 Jan '20

11 Jan '20

> OnFri, 10 Jan 2020 22:09:04 -0700, "Wayne Bretl" <waynebretl(a)cox.net <mailto:waynebretl@cox.net>> wrote: > > > There is a problem. "There is no *color* a camera [I would say sensor] can't see" implies that cameras see colors. This would imply they see colors, but still (as we have said) put out signals that aren't colors. (Why not?) > > Cameras sense spectra. > To me, to be consistent, you must say that sensors sense ("see") spectra, and when their signals are converted to a numerical color specification, may have certain ranges of color they cannot represent, and/or produce certain numerical values that are not colors (outside the human spectral locus), and/or represent colors that are outside a specific color space. This is the crux of the problem. Graeme Gill touched on it as well: > Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:36:00 +1100 > You can of course draw parallel phenomena to color for other "beings", > including other animal, artificial constructs etc., and call it > "color". But it is probably not the same as human color, unless > it has been deliberately constructed to be so. > > For the purposes of most of the discussion here, we're talking > about the tri-stumulus perception of light that humans experience > somewhere in the retina of their eyes. Our overall vision is > not so easily characterized as a set of spectral sensitivities, > since it involves a lot of extra neurological processing. Absolutely true. Graeme Gill also wrote: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 10:07:56 +1100 > As before, it comes down to your definition of "gamut". For a > Protanope/Deuteranope/Tritanope observer, their spectral gamut is one > whole dimension less than most humans. > > A two channel sensor certainly can't distinguish a full range > of color (where "color" means a normal human observers perception > of light). But this range can't be characterized by a neat bounding > box in tri-stimulus space called a "gamut". > > It can only be characterized by an accuracy limit boundary drawn in > spectral space, that is a property of both the sensor itself, and > whatever mechanism (i.e. profile) used to convert the sensor signals > into color values. > > It's unlikely that there is a corresponding 3 dimensional color > volume, since the dimensionality of the spectral space is much > higher, making a 1:1 mapping topologically impossible. The > best you could do is color + extra dimensions. i.e. a particular > color may be out of gamut when it has one spectral composition, > but in gamut when it has another. The spectral composition > forms the extra dimensions of such a "color gamut" representation. Just as for for a Protanope/Deuteranope/Tritanope observer, whose spectral gamut is one whole dimension less than most humans, for other species, their spectral gamut can be an entire dimension larger than that of most humans. So yes, there are “colors" that exist that humans cannot see. They are outside the “gamut” of the human observer. Are they “imaginary?” Not to the species that see them. Birds have a tetrameric visual system, with cones dedicated to UV light. Can the colors they see be differentiated using a tristimulus-based camera sensor (or by humans)? Nope. But we can get an idea of what they see by using a multispectral camera with specially designed filters that mimic avian tetrameric vision. Birds Can See a 'Colour' Humans Can't. Now Scientists Have Revealed This Hidden World https://www.sciencealert.com/birds-can-see-uv-light-now-scientists-can-show… (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08142-5 if you want the details.) Do camera sensors always map “all input stimulus” to an output? Not if you are an astrophotographer and your camera sensor has an IR cutoff filter, as many do. Wayne and Graeme’s carefully worded descriptions are right on the money. But the real question remains - does this question of whether scanners (or cameras) have a "color gamut" have any practical usefulness? For most photographers or printers producing work product for consumers, on a practical basis, probably not. But I’m sure this MMA color management event will continue for many more rounds. ;-) —Rich Wagner

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8-bit Graph
by graxx＠videotron.ca 11 Jan '20

11 Jan '20

Made some progress on my monitor "measurement" application I'd like to share here: https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkpdCEnWYVaM-klEx1w?e=DYRi7Q This time, I used a "classical" 8-bit workflow, i.e. sending 8-bit RGB values to the monitor, from 0 to 255, while the video driver operates at a 10-bit level. What I like about this graph is that it clearly shows a non-linear relationship between input RGB and measured output Luminance. I have Gamma = 2.2 selected in Multiprofiler. I think the results speaks volume about the ideal relationship between inputs and outputs in that each RGB code value on the input corresponds to its own, discrete Luminance value on the output. / Roger

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RE: Dell UP2516D
by graxx＠videotron.ca 11 Jan '20

11 Jan '20

Wire, If you stumble upon a download link, please send a copy my way. I've searched on the Dell site myself a few days ago, in the context of this "convo" to no avail. / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Wire ~ via colorsync-users Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 5:38 PM To: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Dell UP2516D Roger, per your question about Dell's SDK, it appears that it can be downloaded from Dell's support site and gives access to internal LUTs. Have fun!

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RE: Dell UP2516D
by graxx＠videotron.ca 11 Jan '20

11 Jan '20

Dear Wire, You wrote: > This SW can be used cal and load internal LUTs (there are two user cal slots available). Do you have any information about this process? I'm curious what kind of "cal" and "loading of internal LUTs" do? Call me skeptical. According to my reading on the subject, so far, from Dell's docu and other monitor brand's software, the "cal slots" or "presets" would be used to "store" calibration settings such as target gamma and color temperature but they don't give the user access to the factory LUTs? Thanks for your help in advance / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Wire ~ via colorsync-users Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 1:59 PM To: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Dell UP2516D Turns out Dell offers the Xrite i1display app for WIn and Mac free and it works with non-dell branded i1displays. This SW can be used cal and load internal LUTs (there are two user cal slots available). Use same i1display with DisplayCal and a newer 10-bit display port data path and for $600 total cost including colorimeter (!wow) ($700 if u want a 27in display, QHD) you are doing gorgeous wide gamut that's pure as virgin snow. I have found my 8-bit setup is producing perfectly smooth tonality with superb response, even without the custom LUT, so I will not seek to upgrade vid in this old Mac as not needed for my purposes. Safe to say that with this display you mosdef can see the limits of 8-bit appear in certain gradients. So I see why the industry has gone to "billions of colors" I did have a glitch where for a while DisplayCal got weird and started producing weird lumpy results. I shut it down, unplugged DTP94 then started over and everything was sweet again. No matter how far things advance, it seems a personal computer must be arbitrarily reset sometimes to make it work. I'm using MacOS Mojave on a 2008 Mac Pro with an NVidia GTX680 over DVI-to-HDMI /wire

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Re: Humans (and cameras and scanners) do not have a color.. simple answer
by Marc Levine 11 Jan '20

11 Jan '20

Hi list, Here’s the deal with MonacoEZcolor (MEC): the product Wire is asking about. MEC does use an uncalibrated scanner. However, there’s a trick involved. For that product, you would output your printer profile chart with color management off. The printed chart has a ghosted “scanner it8 image”, to which you would tape your photographic IT8 (came with the software). You would then scan the whole the whole thing with all the smarts turned off and feed that into the software. The software would: 1) collect the scanned RGBeez from the taped-on photographic IT8 2) look up the reference lab values for the taped-on IT8 3) using those 2 sets of data, build an input profile for the scanner. Note: you could save that profile as the scanner profile, effectively making the scanned “calibrated” 4) collect the RGBeez from the imaged of the printed output target (same scan) 5) convert that second set of RGBeez to Lab using the scanner profile (now you have Lab... just like it you measured it) 6) use the “simulated lab” and the output target chart def (a bunch of RGBeez or CMYKays, depending on your print driver) to build your printer profile. It was pretty trick and often worked really well (sometimes too well!) it wasn’t perfect due to the constraints of the lightsource of the scanner. In those days, inkjet inks were not as mature as they are today. Sometimes they were a little wonky in their spectral characteristics... which made them look really different when illuminated by the scanner lamp compared to a bonafide spectro. I never thought of this back then.... but I guess you could have even made a transmissive print profile provide using transparent film it8 and scanning the whole thing transmissively. I must have a copy of that software around here somewhere! ; ) A little long winded... but hopefully clear. -Marc

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Re: Humans (and cameras and scanners) do not have a color gamut (?)
by andrew＠digitaldog.net 10 Jan '20

10 Jan '20

What they thought was, there are a few potential customers that are not very demanding in their need for quality color printer profiles. Andrew Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 10, 2020, at 3:49 PM, Wire ~ via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > > Yes, MonacoEZColor! That's it > > So what made a world-renowned color company think they could offer consumer > inkjet printer profiling this way? > > And it worked for me well enough to allow custom ink and paper combos that > looks way better than default, even if they might be imperfect by all kinds > of measures. > >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 2:38 PM Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users < >> colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: >>> On Jan 10, 2020, at 3:27 PM, Wire ~ via colorsync-users < >> colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: >>> Per this "where does the gamut not live" convo... >> Must you? >>> Back in the bronze age of consumer color I had a Monaco package that made >>> printer and scanner profiles. >> MonacoEZ? Whatever, scanner based printer profiles? No, it didn’t work >> worth a damn making printer profiles. >> Back in days even before that, at least there were actual tools like the >> ColorTron (still have one) that could. >>> Why can an unprofiled scanner be used to make a printer profile, >> No. >>> yet it's common to create and use a IT8- ot Q60-referenced scanner >> profile for photographic scans? >> What makes you assume an un-profiled scanner can make a printer profile >> that’s useable? Have you ever tried to make a decent paper profile with a >> scanner as some here have? >> Tried the same thing with a recent version of SliverFast? I have, also a >> printer profile created. Useless but created. >> Do you own a Spectrophotometer? Want a printer profile, use that; right >> tool for the right job. >> Andrew Rodney >> http://www.digitaldog.net/ <http://www.digitaldog.net/> >> _______________________________________________ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/wire%40lexiphanicis… >> This email sent to wire(a)lexiphanicism.com > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/andrew%40digitaldog… > > This email sent to andrew(a)digitaldog.net

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Dell UP2516D
by Wire ~ 10 Jan '20

10 Jan '20

Roger, per your question about Dell's SDK, it appears that it can be downloaded from Dell's support site and gives access to internal LUTs. Have fun!

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Dell UP2516D
by Wire ~ 10 Jan '20

10 Jan '20

Turns out Dell offers the Xrite i1display app for WIn and Mac free and it works with non-dell branded i1displays. This SW can be used cal and load internal LUTs (there are two user cal slots available). Use same i1display with DisplayCal and a newer 10-bit display port data path and for $600 total cost including colorimeter (!wow) ($700 if u want a 27in display, QHD) you are doing gorgeous wide gamut that's pure as virgin snow. I have found my 8-bit setup is producing perfectly smooth tonality with superb response, even without the custom LUT, so I will not seek to upgrade vid in this old Mac as not needed for my purposes. Safe to say that with this display you mosdef can see the limits of 8-bit appear in certain gradients. So I see why the industry has gone to "billions of colors" I did have a glitch where for a while DisplayCal got weird and started producing weird lumpy results. I shut it down, unplugged DTP94 then started over and everything was sweet again. No matter how far things advance, it seems a personal computer must be arbitrarily reset sometimes to make it work. I'm using MacOS Mojave on a 2008 Mac Pro with an NVidia GTX680 over DVI-to-HDMI /wire

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