January 2020 - colorsync-users

Printer - RBB or CMYK?
by PPS Lists 10 Jan '20

10 Jan '20

I used to know how to do this but it has been so long since I have needed to I have forgotten how. I need to determine if the print pipeline for a certain laser printer is RGB or CMYK. I used to know how to spin up a Photoshop file in a certain way and send to print. IIRC, the procedure was along the lines of make a CMYK document, and create a black square of equal parts of Cyan, Magenta and Yellow. Then slap a smaller 100% black square on top of the CMY square and send to print. Something like that. Does anyone know the correct steps? Thank you.

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RE: Printer - RBB or CMYK?
by graxx＠videotron.ca 10 Jan '20

10 Jan '20

Nice sets of targets 😊 / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Wire ~ via colorsync-users Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 12:23 PM To: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Printer - RBB or CMYK? On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 01:46 Scott Martin via colorsync-users < colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > > Visual profiling targets are really helpful here. Do do this I print > both my Onsight RGB 8x10 Visual profiling target, and a CMYK P2P51H > Expanded target. You can download these at > https://www.on-sight.com/downloads/ < > https://www.on-sight.com/downloads/> I dig your 6 Faces test image! I found it looking for test images to examine this new wcg display. Thanks for putting that stuff on web. Source for the other CMYK target Scott mentions, plus more (yes, of course, any one can google but I was just there;) Hutch Color Test Images http://www.hutchcolor.com/Images_and_targets.html /wire > _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx(a)videotron.ca

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RE: basICColor Back on Track
by graxx＠videotron.ca 10 Jan '20

10 Jan '20

Thanks Iliah! Looking forward to this new generation of software. Too bad I'm not going SanDiego... Best / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Iliah Borg via colorsync-users Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 10:35 AM To: Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: basICColor Back on Track Dear Ladies and Gentlemen: Here is from basICColor press release: "... Karl Koch and Franz Herbert have teamed up to develop new and improved versions of essential professional color management software under the brand name basICColor: basICColor display: The monitor calibration and profiling solution, the basICColor display software has been rewritten from the ground up with many improvements. display 6 will be officially released Q1 2020, a pre-release version of display 6 for macOS can be purchased now. The Windows version will be ready in time for the official release date. Upgrades are available for owners of basICColor display 5. basICColor input: generates highly superior DCP and ICC profiles for digital cameras. The much improved basICColor input 6 will be released at the start of COLOR20 in San Diego (11 -14 January 2020) in 3 versions: . basICColor input 6 . basICColor input 6 Pro . basICColor inputRAW 6 Pre-release versions are available today. Upgrades are available for owners of earlier basICColor input 5. basICColor cockpit: the most universal software for color correct viewing and converting of color images of all sorts - from raw to spectral!" Contact: Ingenieurbuero Dipl.-Ing. Karl Koch Maistrasse 18 D82377 Penzberg Germany info(a)basiccolor.de -- Best regards, Iliah Borg LibRaw, LLC www.libraw.org www.rawdigger.com www.fastrawviewer.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx(a)videotron.ca

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basICColor Back on Track
by Iliah Borg 10 Jan '20

10 Jan '20

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen: Here is from basICColor press release: "... Karl Koch and Franz Herbert have teamed up to develop new and improved versions of essential professional color management software under the brand name basICColor: basICColor display: The monitor calibration and profiling solution, the basICColor display software has been rewritten from the ground up with many improvements. display 6 will be officially released Q1 2020, a pre-release version of display 6 for macOS can be purchased now. The Windows version will be ready in time for the official release date. Upgrades are available for owners of basICColor display 5. basICColor input: generates highly superior DCP and ICC profiles for digital cameras. The much improved basICColor input 6 will be released at the start of COLOR20 in San Diego (11 -14 January 2020) in 3 versions: • basICColor input 6 • basICColor input 6 Pro • basICColor inputRAW 6 Pre-release versions are available today. Upgrades are available for owners of earlier basICColor input 5. basICColor cockpit: the most universal software for color correct viewing and converting of color images of all sorts – from raw to spectral!" Contact: Ingenieurbuero Dipl.-Ing. Karl Koch Maistrasse 18 D82377 Penzberg Germany info(a)basiccolor.de -- Best regards, Iliah Borg LibRaw, LLC www.libraw.org www.rawdigger.com www.fastrawviewer.com

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RE: Monitor Luminance pattern
by graxx＠videotron.ca 10 Jan '20

10 Jan '20

Wayne, I figured this much, that the value are getting "corrected" by virtue of passing through the monitor's internal 14-bit LUTs. Two things, if I may. First, there has to be a 16-bit to 10-bit reduction, somewhere, on the way to the monitor, by the video driver, makes sense? Second, I wonder to what extent does the monitor actually "gamma correct" the values, by expanding them to 14-bit, since the slope of the resulting 'curve' is a straight line? I could not find any literature on the workings of these monitor LUTs yesterday... / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Bretl <waynebretl(a)cox.net> Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2020 10:29 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca; 'Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: Monitor Luminance pattern If I had to guess without further info, it looks like the 10-bit values are gamma corrected, and the monitor then applies the inverse gamma, making the output luminance linear, but with larger steps at higher luminance, which is what you want for best perceptual uniformity and least visibility of the quantizing steps at all luminance levels. -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+waynebretl=cox.net(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Roger Breton via colorsync-users Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2020 8:11 PM To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: Monitor Luminance pattern In trying to separate "myths from facts". I've created a small application to directly feed my monitor 16-bit/channel RGB values, from 0 all the way to 65536. The results is here : https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkpYWyI61LO82SM-FVA?e=rPFvOe In analyzing the result, I confess I'm no programming wiz or mathematician, and I'm having a hard time separate what part of my display "pipeline" is responsible for what. The graph shows measured Luminance values for RGB levels in increments of 64 (0, 64, 128, 192, 256 ,,, 65536). It is clear that the mapping is pretty linear in the darkest shadows and progressively "deteriorates" (voluntarily?) as we move towards the highlights. In an ideal world, we would want to enjoy 1:1 tone mapping "throughout", such that, if we start with 16-bit/channel RGB photography, we get 16-bit mode in Photoshop and we get 16bit/channel off the monitor through 16-bit/channel video card. Maybe in a few years. To summarize, 16-bit RGB -> Video Card -> which sends 10-bit to the monitor > which passes this through 14-bit LUT. / Roger Breton _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/waynebretl%40cox.net This email sent to waynebretl(a)cox.net

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RE: Monitor Luminance pattern
by graxx＠videotron.ca 10 Jan '20

10 Jan '20

Wayne, The horizontal axis represent the 16-bit RGB digital code value sent to the monitor for display while the vertical axis represent the monitor response (Luminance). I'm surprised you're having difficulty viewing the PDF? Are you able to zoom in Acrobat? / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Bretl <waynebretl(a)cox.net> Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2020 10:22 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca; 'Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: Monitor Luminance pattern Having a hard time interpreting this without knowing what the two axes are, and whether they are linear or logarithmic. Plus, the notations are practically impossible to read even on my big monitor.

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RE: Colorsync in MacOS Mojave
by graxx＠videotron.ca 10 Jan '20

10 Jan '20

Wire, You wrote (in your usual stylish prose): > Meanwhile UHD TV is blasting away with change. And it turns out they don't even expose the > concept of color management outside of the confines of the specific tool. Who cares what the > Windows UI looks like. They just pick a standard and build the gear to it. At the end of the > pipeline, a display is given a personality either with a built-in LUT or using custom renderer. > Reps go around youtube explaining—quite properly—that you pick a gamma to suit your > viewing conditions. Sony is in bed with Panavision and all that gear is rented, I was watching some CES2020 coverage (on YouTube), yesterday, all kinds of new mind-boggling gadgets as usual but I was naturally drawn to "television", SAMSUNG, LG, SONY, PANASONIC, you know?... It's clear these guys *are* building the future, a future that is bound to come to down computer monitors, sooner than later. We often talk about "Viewing conditions" and how it affects perception? Well, seems televisions manufacturers are starting to incorporate those ideas in "modern television", on the heel of all kinds of international technology committees. It's no longer 'whatever-image-or-signal-that-comes-down-the- antenna', they're building evermore sophisticated image processing on top of basic image handling capabilities. It's not just "Ambient light compensation", it's analyzing the image content and adjusting the rendering to "optimize" the visual experience. Soon, they'll have cameras that take into account who's watching, a kid, a teenager, a parent, a senior? Adjusting the image based on physiological factors? It's only a matter of time before the Dell, the NECs, the Eizo, the HPs and the rest soon start to offer a host of additional "smarts" that OS and the better image processing apps, like Photoshop, will take advantage of. The next years will be a fun ride. / Roger

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Monitor Luminance pattern
by graxx＠videotron.ca 10 Jan '20

10 Jan '20

In trying to separate "myths from facts". I've created a small application to directly feed my monitor 16-bit/channel RGB values, from 0 all the way to 65536. The results is here : https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkpYWyI61LO82SM-FVA?e=rPFvOe In analyzing the result, I confess I'm no programming wiz or mathematician, and I'm having a hard time separate what part of my display "pipeline" is responsible for what. The graph shows measured Luminance values for RGB levels in increments of 64 (0, 64, 128, 192, 256 ,,, 65536). It is clear that the mapping is pretty linear in the darkest shadows and progressively "deteriorates" (voluntarily?) as we move towards the highlights. In an ideal world, we would want to enjoy 1:1 tone mapping "throughout", such that, if we start with 16-bit/channel RGB photography, we get 16-bit mode in Photoshop and we get 16bit/channel off the monitor through 16-bit/channel video card. Maybe in a few years. To summarize, 16-bit RGB -> Video Card -> which sends 10-bit to the monitor > which passes this through 14-bit LUT. / Roger Breton

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Colorsync in MacOS Mojave
by Wire ~ 09 Jan '20

09 Jan '20

So the reason I am even here — and I recently submitted my first post in about 15 years, since back in the day when fine-art Inkjet printing was all the rage and I found this list from reading the epson-inkjet forum, where the lovely Bruce Fraser was always on hand to clarify things for newbies and throw-down with the heavies — is because when I fired up my old DTP94 after a decade of being away from photography, I found that my copy ColorEyes Display Pro was dead and gone forever due to software version creep and changing tides in the industry. I went looking for an alternative and quickly came across DisplayCal. THERE IS A GOD! Suddenly I was back into building display profiles and sorting through the mysteries of system alignment, wondering what had changed in so many years, and noticing video and phones are now the hot topic in color, giving rise to new display standards. WCG displays are becoming common, and creating common pitfalls. As an aside, I am surprised to find that for all its promise, ICC CM is as much of a can'o worms as ever, even more so. And getting worse, with the evolution of UHD TV. And it's the most vertically integrated company, Apple, that's able to slip a new bigger gamut display standard into the market in a way that doesn't cause ordinary users total mayhem. Wasn't Colorsync supposed to be about the democratization of great color?! As I worked with DisplayCal, I discovered my late-model MacOS was doing something strange: Its color management was producing different display black-patch rendering depending on whether I was using built-in Preview, or Quicklook, or Adobe Photoshop, and Apple's programs will sometimes get it obviously wrong. So happens I was playing with DisplayCal's XYZ LUT capability and the DisplayCal and other forums were abuzz with concern about how Apple could get it wrong and what can be done. Florian reported that it was becoming common knowledge that Apple SW can't handle XYZ LUT profiles and I asked if he had checked in over at the colorsync-users list from back in the day — I suggested to him those guys ought to know what's going on and have some traction with Apple. He said he was on the list, but threw up his hands. Mac has as bad a reputation as Windows these days, and if I were a new creative generation is looking towards progress, I would look towards Linux, where the skilled user has the more freedom and look forward to the sort of fun and promise that used to be celebrated on Mac in days of yore. Those days are gone, of course. I decided to come over here and ask what's going on. So I wrote up my crude explanation of what I was seeing and posted it here, and found dead silence. Not even Rodney showed up to tell me what an idiot I am for posted such uninformed airheaded observations! Then I realized why Florian had shrugged. I wrote up a bug report and submitted it to Apple, to no apparent avail—not that I was expecting anything. Then I ruminate for a bit about how the Colorsync mailing list has become a forgotten backwater of pre-press nerbs using Windows, and Apple doesn't even care about Colorsync any more. I decided to stop by the ICC and noticed they were on the 3rd page of google, far behind the structured cabling solutions, the International Criminal Court, Al Jazeera ICC News, and the International Cricket and Chess Clubs. I found the ICC homepage and they are bragging about some wonderful developments, and I quote: //The iccMAX specification was approved by the ICC Steering Committee in July 2016, and ISO TC 130 members voted unanimously to approve this as a Working Draft of ISO 20677.// GREAT NEWS! So just punted and went along with learning how to align my old displays in the new world, and along the way DisplayCal forums Florian graciously and diligently helps anyone and everyone get the most from his killer software, and explained to me about the limits of my old DTP94 and I worked through what standard Apple's seemingly excellent built-in display profiles adhere to. Over at that forum they have a Rodney too, but he's apparently a specialist in display tech and he will absolutely clobber you over the head with his immense understanding of all the ways this tech can go right or wrong, and how you're an idiot for not thinking about the subject hist way. He will tell you how much Apple sucks at a moments notice. So this is the state of Colorsync and the ICC... Meanwhile UHD TV is blasting away with change. And it turns out they don't even expose the concept of color management outside of the confines of the specific tool. Who cares what the Windows UI looks like. They just pick a standard and build the gear to it. At the end of the pipeline, a display is given a personality either with a built-in LUT or using custom renderer. Reps go around youtube explaining—quite properly—that you pick a gamma to suit your viewing conditions. Sony is in bed with Panavision and all that gear is rented, Some things change and some stay the same. There's a wonderful youtube talk by John Seale at the Australian Cinematographers Society ACS Victoria conference (I want to share but has since been taken down) were he describes how he did Mad Max Fury road, that it was his intro to digi coming out of film, and how Panavision supplied a guy as the color consultant who sat by himself in truck a mile away from the action, looking at levels in the dailies and telling Seale and camera crew what to do with capture to help the FX guys down the line "boost the exposure guys, you've got tons of headroom and the FX crew hates noise in the shadows. They'll grade it down in post" I loved how his open an approriate ignorance was no impediment to his work, as should be true for all of us, something that simply comes with the territory of new tech. What an odd duck in the lone photographer trying to do his craft and make sense of such vastly corporate tools and technologies. The market has a way of its own. Apple is just dropping P3 on the world, and making it work, and it's barely a talking point. Keynotes just mention "great color." It's UHD HDR jibber-jabber that's all the buzz with the Pro XDR. Andrew, please brow-beat me some more over this post. I feel like I'm giving you a reason to live. Meanwhile, it's annoying that Apple's latest SW can't handle well-formed display profiles that meet spec laid down 25 years ago and just quietly does the wrong thing and not only does no one on the Colorsync Users list care, no one here is even using Mac and the listserv is 30 yo technology. Apple probably has probably completely forgotten this thing. /wire

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Re: 1 billion colors
by Wire ~ 09 Jan '20

09 Jan '20

I got an NVidia GTX 680 add-on 'cause I need a card that handles Apple's newer Metal graphics subsys, though I didn't choose it for 10-bit. Annnd, it appears it doesn't support 10-bit. I've seen contradictory reports, but the most definitive regards say no... Plus I can't get it to work :) I see what you are saying about NVidia spec documentation being really bad. On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 3:51 PM <graxx(a)videotron.ca> wrote: > Old Mac 2008? You're out of luck. Only 8-bit video path ☹ > > / Roger > > -----Original Message----- > From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx= > videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Wire ~ via colorsync-users > Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 6:02 PM > To: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List < > colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> > Subject: Re: 1 billion colors > > Ah ok, I follow you. Ya, I found another ref to the same thing for this > model. > > FRC is new to me. Thx. > > I'm trying to get mine into 10-bit mode. All the parts—OS, graphics card > and display, should be able to do it, but no luck. > > For any Mac users, I've got an old 2008 Mac Pro which I am keeping up to > date with DosDude1's fantastic Mojave Patcher that allows late-version > MacOS on systems Apple no longer supports. This hasn't been treacherous at > all, but it adds more variables to an already complicated environment. > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 2:40 PM <graxx(a)videotron.ca> wrote: > > > Sorry! AFC -- yes, "Frame Rate Control" - "FRC" -- my bad! > > > > Apparently, your Dell uses that, according to the web site link you > > gave me? Just as my NEC does? Only Andrew's NEC PA271Q (more recent > > panel) has a "true" 10-bit panel. > > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca > > This email sent to graxx(a)videotron.ca > >

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