Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt
Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt
- Subject: Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt
- From: Gregory John Casamento <email@hidden>
- Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 21:07:36 -0800 (PST)
Wade,
--- "Tregaskis, Wade" <email@hidden> wrote:
>
>> Apart from AppKit: Please give me some examples! Or are you just
>
>> talking out of the blue?
>
>
>
>I think this is where the Cocoa fans are diverging from the GNUstep
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>fans.
>
>
>
>For me, AppKit is what makes Cocoa magic. I could care less about the
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>Cocoa containers--I am comfortable with STL and don't really get a kick
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>out of the cool features of, say, NSArray. For me, Cocoa without AppKit
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>is entirely uninteresting. I like Interface Builder, and "springy"
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>views, and dialog controls that "just work" like you expect, and
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>control-dragging around to make my own actions and outlets. AFAICS
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>GNUstep is not going to give me a comparable "ease-of-development" as
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>Cocoa/AppKit, or even half as easy.
>
>
Here, here. This was in fact exactly my point - great, GnuStep offers a
>
usable app foundation. But it's not worth the bloat as compared to writing
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my own stuff, or using more lightweight alternatives (e.g. the STL,
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SDL/GDK/etc, etc). As a Mac user for over a decade I can't stand to force my
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users to take off an afternoon from work just to install some libraries my
>
app requires (let alone the app itself!).
I guarantee that you've installed libs to get apps working after your initial
installation. Deny it and I'll believe that you're lying as it's a fact of
life, if you're running Linux. You're users should expect no less.
There are at least two side projects for GNUstep which aim to create a GNUstep
on Linux distribution.
>
It's all the stuff on top of that foundation that makes Cocoa great.
>
Including the development tools. The GnuStep tools are [imho] ugly and
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unintuitive. The PB replacement (named ProjectCenter, I believe) is in my
>
experience very unstable, too.
Have you tried Gorm? It's the Interface Builder replacement for GNUstep.
Given that you can literally take a book for Cocoa and write an app using the
instructions in it while using Gorm, I would say that it is almost as intuitive
as IB. If you have any complaints let me know, as I am it's maintainer.
>
[I should say, though, that for my current project on a Red Hat (9) box I'm
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using KWrite, because all the default Red Hat dev tools are too much of a
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pain or too unstable. So perhaps I'm biased, or just very unlucky.]
The former, most likely.
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>PS I could care less how CoreFoundation works under the covers. The
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>fact that GNUstep is in Objective-C from top to bottom is not a selling
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>point for me. If anything, it makes me think that Apple's
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>implementation will probably be a lot faster :) Objective-C is meant to
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>be easy to write, but I don't care how the guts of Cocoa are written; I
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>just want them to be fast and stable!
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>
Exactly. Apple's C-based CoreFoundation is an excellent way to drop down
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slightly from the message-passing overhead of ObjC, without losing all the
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benefits (e.g. polymorphism). And the automatic bridging between the two
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levels is a godsend.
CoreFoundation is one thing and one thing only: It was a way for Apple to
bridge Cocoa with the *ANCIENT* API known as Carbon.
>
There's another point I must mention - an app compiled with GnuStep under Red
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Hat is an order of magnitude slower, in some areas, than one compiled using
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XCode.
Any hard numbers on this? If you've got a comparison between two machines of
comparable power, I would like to see this. Are you certain that apps, in
general, aren't slower on your Linux machine. Unless, of course, you're
running PPC Linux on a dual boot G4/G5 Mac.
>
The Gnu ObjC runtime appears to be very slow, contrary to what it's
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maintainers claim. For the two projects I've considered using GnuStep for,
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the performance was simply too poor. Since I consequently had to write [at
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the least] the core of both projects in C/C++, I decided to just use GTK for
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the UI anyway, and the STL of course for my containers & algorithms. A much
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better solution, I've found.
Good for you.
>
Wade Tregaskis
Later, GJC
=====
Gregory John Casamento -- CEO/President Open Logic Corp.
-- bheron on #gnustep, #linuxstep, & #gormtalk ----------------
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-- Maintainer of Gorm (featured in April Linux Journal) -------
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