Re: Briskets ("plain English" syntax)
Re: Briskets ("plain English" syntax)
- Subject: Re: Briskets ("plain English" syntax)
- From: Michael Kelly <email@hidden>
- Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:44:14 -0700
On 5/14/02 12:50 PM, Lee Azzarello <email@hidden> wrote:
>
On Mon, 13 May 2002, Michael Kelly wrote:
>
>
> Then again, I've seen some AppleScript that beats that little bit right into
>
> the ground as far as nonunderstandability goes, so I guess the sword cuts
>
> both ways.
>
>
If I may, I'd like to get a feeling about code literacy and plain english
>
metaphors. I'm just picking up AppleScript and I'm noticing that the
>
"plain english" thing is more deceptive than it seems. Assuming there are
>
many seasoned programmers on this list, I'm curious what people's opionins
>
are of languages that attenpt to use this plain-engligh/natural-language
>
thing when it comes to programming a computer. Is it worth it? Or does it
>
further obfucate code literacy?
This is something that has been eating at me for a long time! (Actually,
ever since I got past the "Bob the folder" stage.)
Although I don't have much Real Programming experience, I'm very familiar
with Perl, have a working knowledge of Python, and a very rudimentary
understanding of C. And quite frankly, I find AS's "plain English" syntax to
be an annoyance. As Lee points out, it obfuscates even simple syntax, as
well as requiring more time and space to type out (If you think that's not
important, consider the origins of the autoincrement and autodecrement.
("i++" and "i--" type stuff))
Additionally, maybe it's just me, but there's something about having lots
and lots of little words (for instance, "repeat with i from 1 to 20 by 2")
that makes me just gloss over things. In AS there are no visual delimiters.
Everything is dependent on newlines and indentation, unlike the traditional
parentheses and curlies. Because of this, conditional statements and small
loops blend right into the rest of the code, and readability suffers.
On 5/14/02 1:49 PM, Erik Price <email@hidden> wrote:
>
Speaking from another person who comes from more experience with
>
languages that have "traditional" syntax (C-derived), I'm having the
>
same problems. AS seems just too verbose -- I know that to an extent
>
verbosity is good, but this is difficult for me to pick up. Even
>
Python, IMO, has more readable "english-like" syntax.
I agree there. Although their similar uses and target audiences may have
contributed to it, I was able to pick up Python very quickly based on my
existing Perl knowledge. I didn't even find Python's OO-ness to be very
difficult to pick up. But nothing has helped me with AS. My mouse pad has a
permanent indentation from the rapid head-banging that occurs every time I
try to write an AS app :)
>
Obviously having some background with other languages, I'm biased.
I wouldn't say that -- having experience in other languages lets you compare
AS syntax to that of other, more "normal" (i.e., C-derived) languages. AS is
only worthwhile if it compares favorably to other languages.
If I may poke a stick at AS (and perhaps even Apple) one final time, I will
say that I think the very choice of using _English_ as a language model is
terrible. As I'm sure we all know, English is a terribly inconsistent
language.
To take a programming language, something can be marveled at for its
consistency, and model it after an syntactical wreck like English just does
not make sense in my opinion. While it may reduce the fear a new user may
feel when they first venture into the world of AppleScript, it soon becomes
a burden, especially when the programmer tries to apply knowledge derived
from other languages.
Is it not ultimately more understandable to have a visually distinctive,
compact, _standardized_ language than one that bases itself on English
syntax? (Assuming, of course, that those last two words are not an
oxymoron.)
On 5/14/02 2:53 PM, Jon Pugh <email@hidden> wrote:
>
At 12:50 PM -0700 5/14/02, Lee Azzarello wrote:
>
> I'm curious what people's opionins
>
> are of languages that attenpt to use this plain-engligh/natural-language
>
> thing when it comes to programming a computer. Is it worth it? Or does it
>
> further obfucate code literacy?
>
>
Troll! Are you *trying* to start a flame war?
I doubt it. For those of us who have migrated to this list in the past few
years, I think it is a worthwhile topic to bring up. Lee brings up a very
good point.
Perhaps I would see the AppleScript Way with more clarity if I came from the
HyperCard camp. But alas, I did not. I joined this list seeking
enlightenment on the ways of AppleScript, and I am happy to say that I have
found some, but I have a long way to go.
Disclaimer:
These are just my opinions. I am not attacking anyone's beliefs -- I am
simply voicing my own. I am very curious to see the opinions of those who
prefer the AS-style syntax over C-style syntax. Please nobody get offended.
--
Michael
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