Re: [OT] Avoiding Unnecessary Updates -- WAS: Re: IS: Script Editor Styles Format Change Script -- WAS: Re: String to list conversion
Re: [OT] Avoiding Unnecessary Updates -- WAS: Re: IS: Script Editor Styles Format Change Script -- WAS: Re: String to list conversion
- Subject: Re: [OT] Avoiding Unnecessary Updates -- WAS: Re: IS: Script Editor Styles Format Change Script -- WAS: Re: String to list conversion
- From: "John C. Welch" <email@hidden>
- Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:33:11 -0500
On 9/15/04 2:05 AM, "Johnny AppleScript" <email@hidden> wrote:
>
>> So you only apply updates to anything when they fix a specific problem
>> you're having? Does that include the OS too?
>
> Pretty much, yes. I'll apply, for example, a security update or a patch to
> any app where the vendor makes clear a potential issue that I can foresee
> happening given our setup before such a problem may occur, but, again, if it
> isn't broken, I don't seek to fix it. I'm still on OS X 10.3.3., and have
> not seen any issues that compel me to go to 10.3.5. I am only on Panther
> because someone else paid for it; I still use Jag on other machines, and
> have not gone beyond 10.2.6 on any of those.
You do realize they roll up security updates in those .x.x updates that
aren't always released separately, right?
> I also drive a 1963 T-bird that I bought as my very first car
> when I was 15. Runs great, looks great, drives great. Ford even gave me free
> fixes for a couple of items years and years and years beyond the warranty
> expired, and I was the second owner. How's that for treating your customers
> well? Makes me buy Fords each time a new one is in order.
Why buy a new one then? They all have four wheels and go vroom.
>
>> Why is it when anyone defends MS, they're accused of being apologists as if
>> no one rationally could actually LIKE a MS product?
>
> And why is it when apologists exclaim the above question, they nearly always
> imply the accusers have no love or appreciation of the product? Doesn't it
> stand to reason that a complainer takes the time to complain because he
> otherwise loves, or at least appreciates the program and must use it, or at
> least chooses to use it over all others? Does such choice relinquish the
> right to find fault, and assess when such fault should require payment and
> which should be covered by payment already rendered?
No, but it's a constant in the mac market. Say anything whatsoever nice
about MS, and you're an "apologist".
>
>> No, but if you think that any company is going to blow off a paid upgrade
>> with new features until all bugs are fixed, you're hallucinating. Apple
>> doesn't even do that.
>
> I don't think such a thing, nor did I ever state as such. That doesn't stop
> Apple, or even Microsoft, from issuing free critical updates to both OS and
> apps. I still get free updates to Jaguar, and iApps, even though Panther is
> now around a year old. Why should I expect less from an app that cost more,
> from the same company that still occasionally releases an update to its own
> free email app?
Um...please explain how the JMF is a critical update, without which the
product is incapable of functioning? As well, the ONLY updates you see for
Jag are security related at this point. Any bug fixes are a part of Panther
now. You haven't seen 10.2.9, 10.2.10, etc, and you never will.
>
>> Okay, so in other words any time that you charge for any update that has any
>> bug fixes in it, it's a tax. You don't seem to mind the Apple tax, or any
>> other company's tax, because EVERY COMPUTER COMPANY ON THE PLANET DOES THIS.
>> It's called *revenue generation* and without it, you go out of business.
>
> No, not quite; you're twisting my words to suit your opinion. Perhaps nearly
> everyone, including Apple, does do it to some degree. That doesn't make it
> right, that doesn't mean it won't affect my purchasing choices when one
> company chooses to make a particularly egregious, or cumulatively heavy
> abuse of the practice.
I'm not twisting anything. You insist that Office 2004 is MS attempting to
charge for what is a set of free bug updates.
> There are plenty of reputable software companies who
> do just fine by making a best Good Faith effort to fix what should be fixed
> for payment already received. I'll look for those best of breed when
> spending my money, and it's up to the companies to decide just how far they
> want to push their customer base. Too often its an entrenched IT manager
> that makes that decision for everyone, and normal market response is quashed
> before it can correct an issue that should be resolved.
What computer company is still doing major work for a product that is over
three years old and has a new version out already and not charging for it.
>
>> How did you buy them? I bought copies of Office X a month before 2004 came
>> out, but because I didn't buy them retail, no free upgrade. Such is life.
>
> Most were purchased with technology grants at retail. The cutoff was January
> 6th, 2004, for a product that didn't ship until, what, May? June? The JMF
> bug was first experienced here and reported to MS in the first half of 2003.
> At least one updater was released after that, if memory serves.
The JMF bug has nothing to do with this. As well, you might want to actually
look at the technology guarantee terms, since by that statement, you don't
actually have a clue about them...
" If you acquire the Microsoft® products listed below between January 6,
2004 and September 30, 2004, you are eligible to
obtain the corresponding Microsoft Office 2004 for Mac product for the cost
of shipping and handling ($10.00 US & $15.00 CDN),
plus applicable sales tax."
Full details in the PDF at:
<http://download.microsoft.com/download/0/5/f/05f5ef70-dd7f-4e81-92b2-4e5d82
fbeaad/Office2004-Tech-Guarantee-Coupon.pdf>
>
>> Again, no company in the computer market does what you demand MS does, not
>> Apple, not IBM, not anyone.
>
> I disagree with the last statement, but I will allow that you may have meant
> to say "major company", because there are plenty of good small developers
> who do not share your cynicism, and who fix bugs long after they are no
> longer expected by your crowd to do so. Even ACD has released a patch for
> Canvas 3.5.5 (so far; other patches for earlier versions are scheduled) to
> fix a semi-fatal flaw, even though they bought the product line from Deneba
> and the product in question was completed nearly nine years years ago, and
> they are now on version 9.
Different situation...that was a bug that was going to be a problem the day
they set it up, they just didn't know it was going to be in use that long.
>
> That's a company I'm more likely to give money to than the likes of Adobe
> when it comes time to buy new graphics software.
And the number of Press houses that will take a Canvas file in your area?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
>
>> No, really? Could you get Mail/Mozilla/Eudora to not crash when a crappily
>> built email comes in, because I've watched every email client on the planet
>> practically crash if probed the right way.
>
> Well, the thing is, I've never seen Mail or Emailer or Outlook Express crash
> repeatedly on the same email in the same way that the JMF bug is repeatable.
Really? A feature they don't have doesn't cause them to crash?
> I can't speak for Eudora as to what fatal bugs it has that have gone
> unfixed, but for a long darn time, Eudora and Mozilla, were, and still are,
> free in one form or another, so how do you count them in this discussion?
> Technically, Mail is free, too. And yet all those apps see continuously free
> updates or upgrades, and even if they don't, I never paid for anything I'm
> not getting by using them. Again, I recently downloaded at least two updates
> form Mail under Jag, so even Apple steps up to the plate when it's deemed
> critical or fatal even though their now on the next version.
Price is immaterial. How many bug fixes have you seen for mozilla 1.0
lately? Eudora 3? Mail that shipped with Mac OS X Server 1.2? How many
copies of Panther are you running on a beige G3 with full support by Apple.
>
> I think to make your point you're going to have to bring in fully commercial
> apps like PowerMail and Mailsmith, and I doubt even you're willing to put
> the makers of those apps in the same level of customer care and
> communication that you place MS. But I'd be more than grateful to hear of
> any such fatal bugs and/or poor customer support from Bare Bones before I
> opt to send them any more money.
I haven't seen an update to BBEdit 2 in quite some time.
>
>> Well, if you want certain fixes, you buy the new version. That's how it
>> works with all commercial software. Your like or dislike is immaterial,
>> since reality doesn't care if we *like* it.
>
> But some companies are more aware of everyone's reality, not just their own,
> and care more than others, so I'll go with them, thanks.
Then don't use Office at all. Delete it. Stop paying the MS tax. Stand up
for your freedom from the evil redmondites. It's not that bad, who needs any
of those features anyway.
>> They didn't just do a 'bug fix' with the JMF, they rewrote the thing
>> entirely, because that was the best way to get it to work right with the way
>> SPAM is being done, and allow them to update it. So, your assumption that
>> the JMF improvements in 2004 are just "bug fixes" that MS is somehow trying
>> to steal money from you for is incorrect.
>
> Well, fi that's the case, the right thing to do would be to offer at least a
> discount for those who are suffering a loss of use over a poorly designed
> product. Lots and lots of companies do that all the time. Many call it a
> Quality Assurance program or some such. I would recommend reconsidering
> purchasing Office 2004 if MS were to negotiate some reasonable price break
> for broken features now fixed in the new version. Even an offer of $10 per
> copy would at least bring us to the table.
They DO offer those things...they have upgrade discounts, volume upgrade
discounts, technology guarantees, a veritable PLETHORA of programs for that.
I'm interested though on the names of companies and the products and prices
of these products that do what you want them to do...I notice that the
Canvas 3.5.x bug doesn't get you a free copy, or even a $10 copy of 9. It
gets you a single resource patch.
>
>> I love how, in all these arguments, "Do The Right Thing" ALWAYS, not mostly
>> but ALWAYS translates to "Give me what I want for free in perpetuity".
>
> You should have your Universal Translator looked at; it appears to be
> defective. See the many examples above as clear statement to the contrary.
You've shown one case, for a bug that has nothing to do with the JMF filter,
as you would have to assume that MS is able to fix that bug in the v.X JMF
and refuses to for some nefarious purpose.
john
--
Committees never have vision.
They have meetings.
john c welch
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