Re: This AppleScript stuff is harder than I thought
Re: This AppleScript stuff is harder than I thought
- Subject: Re: This AppleScript stuff is harder than I thought
- From: Steve Suranie <email@hidden>
- Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:01:26 -0400
Just my 2 cents here:
All the programs you've listed below are just that, programs. Excel exists
so that you can write complex accounting formulas and the developers added
the macros for those comfortable enough or with the need to expand the
program beyond the off-the-shelf capabilities. Rules in Mail, actions in
Photoshop, the top level automation of iPhoto or GarageBand were purposely
built into those applications for the novice user to easily master.
But AppleScript is not a program in the same sense of Photoshop and
comparing the two isn't even Apples and Oranges but more like Apples and
Kiwis. AppleScript, IMHO, is for the Mac user who wants to step into the
deeper end of the pool. I don't believe it was ever developed with the
everyday user in mind. But neither was any other programming language. And
has been noted with the learning of anything time and patience will get you
your end results. Admittedly AppleScript is frustrating in its lack of
documentation though the books out there are helpful (I'll plug the
comprehensive guide by Rosenthal here) but I don't think that's a result of
a different expectation of the user.
I think your frustration rises from the expectation that AppleScript will
act like some of the other consumer programs, easily solve complex tasks
(like color correcting in Photoshop) or red flag you immediately that you
are using the wrong tool to accomplish what you need. Unfortunately the
opposite seems to be true, AS can solve complex task but it is not always
easy to get to the solution and at times I have found myself pounding the
keyboard for a day and a half before accepting the notion that AS is not the
solution to the problem at hand.
I would say to not give up on AS and to stick around on this list. I have
been working with AS for three years now and I have to admit that I am
constantly humbled and in awe of the programming knowledge other
contributors to this list demonstrate. Time and patience can get you to
where you need to be with AS, though that doesn't do you well now for
immediate problems it can be of great service down the road.
Okay, sliding soap box away and yielding the floor. : )
On 6/20/05 4:51 PM, "Sparky" <email@hidden> wrote:
> I believe that your reference to deadlines and how they tend warp
> one's perspective is quite correct. I'm sure every reader of this
> list is a programmer of one species or another. And not one of us got
> a clean compile the first time on the first program we ever wrote.
> Learning a language involves effort and persistence. And learning on
> too tight a deadline certainly increases the chances of failure at
> the very time when failure is not an option. And I'm open to the
> possibility that the reason I'm walking away from this experience
> with a sour taste is that I didn't show proper humility toward AS as
> a programming language. When the actions that shipped with Automator
> and those that I found available online didn't suit my needs, as an
> experienced programmer I decided to write my own. In so doing I went
> a layer deeper than Apple is actively promoting Automator users to go.
>
> But let me compare this experience with some of the other
> applications that are promoted to end users. I use spreadsheet
> applications. And I have written some pretty complex formulas when
> the need arises. I've even gone a layer deeper and written macros
> when I need something beyond what can be done using formulas. I've
> written extensive Mail rules to filter out junk mail. I use Photoshop
> and other Adobe creative applications to mockup application
> storyboards and such. I've successfully played around with iMovie and
> GarageBand. In every one of these situations I feel that these well-
> designed applications provide a constructive user experience that
> enables me to accomplish what I need to do reasonably quickly given
> the complexity of the task I'm trying to perform. Though I don't read
> the manual as often as I should, I can figure out after a reasonable
> amount of pecking around whether what I'm trying to do is beyond the
> capabilities of the application. Just as importantly, I can usually
> distinguish between when I'm doing something wrong and when when
> there's an inconsistency in the application.
>
> Not to beat a dead horse (I promise this will be my last posting on
> this topic and that I'll let the AS pros in this group have the last
> word), but my gut tells me that Automator may very well end up doing
> more harm than good as far as Enabling users. Yes, Automator can be
> used to rename your iPhoto pix. But the dark side of how easy it is
> to do this is that this may lure users into a false sense of how
> great Automator is. But when they try to go deeper they may discover,
> as I did, that the Get Folder Contents action can't be effectively
> used as input to Filter Finder Items. But when they can't figure out
> why they may end up doubting themselves and their comfort around
> Apple software instead of more appropriately questioning Automator
> and its underpinnings. I can find at least one similar example as I
> go through the list of actions associated with each of the Apple
> applications that support Automator. As I indicated, over the years
> I've heard Apple pitch Apple Events and Apple Script to end users. As
> an experienced programmer and as somebody who has casually explored
> the technology several times before I believe that something like
> Apple Events, AppleScript and Automator COULD evolve into a power
> user tool with "legs" like spreadsheets and other successful script-
> based applications. But in order to provide that kind of tool Apple
> can't just modify Automator (though this is certainly necessary).
> They also need to clean up the age-old problems in the layers below.
>
> Sorry to take up so much column space in this forum.
>
>
>
>> When we are faced with a problem-task, especially when that problem-
>> task
>> takes on urgent qualities because of our own circumstance, then it is
>> difficult to step through a logical progression of learning --
>> anything, not
>> just a new programming language.
>>
>> Personalities and learning styles aside, the most long-lasting
>> learning
>> takes place in an environment of comfort and where failures can be
>> set aside
>> or examined closely as needed. Failure must be planned for and
>> encouraged.
>>
>> During the "crunch" of various pressures, whether real or
>> perceived, we most
>> often flail about looking for something to hold tight to, as if we
>> were new
>> swimmers in the deep end of the pool -- left alone to sink or float.
>>
>> Paul's advice is good advice, and since you've solved the problem
>> at hand,
>> _now_ is the time to pick up some structured resources, to play
>> without fear
>> of deadline and to explore in sequence.
>>
>> The book noted below is a good one, and it really does a great job of
>> providing at once a flood-light illumination of AppleScript and a
>> laser-like
>> focus on major structures. It's also witty in places and clearly
>> acknowledges eccentricities in the language.
>>
>> Granted, Apple has not helped the problem over the years, and it
>> appears
>> that Apple exhibits symptoms of Corporate ADD (perhaps a
>> personality leak
>> from their co-founder and CEO?) If it were not for people outside
>> of Apple,
>> AppleScript may very well be a cosmic joke by now (it's not). (Not
>> there
>> are not people at Apple who appear to at least like AppleScript,
>> but even
>> they have moved on to other replacement systems instead of focusing
>> on the
>> real issues of AS programming. Sad.)
>>
>>
>> "David Crowe" wrote:
>>
>>> It's this kind of thing that makes AppleScript programming so
>>> difficult for a newbie. Without this group to answer questions like
>>> this (especially when I don't have a workaround) I don't know what
>>> I'd do!
>>>
>>
>> This group is great (present writer excluded) but even better is a
>> book --
>> so go and buy "AppleScript: The Definitive Guide" by Matt Neuberg.
>>
>> And, despite its age and professionally embarrassing lack of
>> updates, the
>> AppleScript Language Guide is still the only real language-overview
>> resource
>> from Apple, and it's worth the read.
>>
>> Picking up fragments of code from here or there is not the way to
>> learn any
>> programming language, so take a few weeks and get a good book, and
>> then
>> spend 2 or 3 hours per day working through the language and you'll
>> feel much
>> more confident (even when you're wrong!)
>>
>> I should know. ;)
>> --
>> Gary
>>
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