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Re: URL Access Redux
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Re: URL Access Redux


  • Subject: Re: URL Access Redux
  • From: Roger Howard <email@hidden>
  • Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:56:17 -0700


On May 23, 2006, at 2:48 AM, Emmanuel wrote:

At 10:49 AM -0700 5/22/06, Roger Howard wrote:
On a tangent, I do think we need some statement from the listmom (or whomever) about the suitability of do shell script-based solutions here, as this debate has come up several times recently. I personally believe this is a perfectly relevant type of solution for this list, and like any other offered solutions it is up to the requester to determine if it's appropriate for their needs. I cannot even count the number of times I've used do shell script where no other solution worked. I also don't believe that shell commands are, in the abstract, any more of a stretch to learn for people already writing scripts, and it's a very powerful facility in OSX that has enhanced AppleScript in innumerable ways.

The big problem with do shell script is that it is awfully slow. We publish a page about that at:
<http://www.satimage-software.com/test_05_08/speed_test_result.html>


You can't call hundreds "do shell script" in one script. OMM, "do shell script" alone is 2/100 s.

Agreed, this is an important caveat to be made. Do shell script may provide a useful bridge into powerful tools, but there are cases where it doesn't make (performance) sense to use. There are other cases where a single do shell script call to an external tool will result in a better solution than an equivalent AppleScript-only solution (if one even exists). I don't think this rules out use of do shell script, it's just an important issue to factor in to any solution.


My perspective, since I started this...

- Do shell script provides an important interface to thousands of tools already installed on each OSX machine
- There's a general tendency to demonize shell tools as complicated, however for many needs a very simple command, no more syntactically obtuse than an AppleScript command, can do powerful things. On the other hand, it takes me a week to backtrace some of the more complex shell commands I've seen on this list.
- There's also a tendency to assume that AppleScript solutions are simpler, but I've seen many a plain vanilla AppleScript handler proferred here that made my head hurt just trying to understand it.
- AppleScript is notoriously lacking in some areas that are relatively easier in other environments; I'm sure the opposite is true too.
- The do shell script interface is not without its limitations - there's per-call overhead, and the text-only nature of interacting with these tools, as two big ones
- AppleScript and shell tools (I'm lumping a LOT in here, obviously) are mutually beneficial; AppleScript gets to benefit from the many powerful tools supported by communities much larger than ours. Shell tools are enhanced by the ability to interact with GUI apps.


I just don't see the conflict, except where shell solutions are pushed on users without proper explanation for the caveats. I don't see this happening, and for many newbies I also don't see how their lack of knowledge about the syntax of a particular shell command is any different from lack of knowledge about an AppleScript language nuance.

As long as we all remain respectful and offer the best solution we can imagine for a given requester, I just don't see the need to divide the world into AppleScript-only and everything else. As long as there's some relevance to an AppleScript-based need, I don't see the problem - if the list devolves into weeks of debate over bash vs tcsh then I can understand the issue.

-R
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References: 
 >Re: URL Access Redux (From: Timothy Bates <email@hidden>)
 >Re: URL Access Redux (From: Roger Howard <email@hidden>)
 >Re: URL Access Redux (From: Emmanuel <email@hidden>)

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