Re: dev tools
Re: dev tools
- Subject: Re: dev tools
- From: has <email@hidden>
- Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:31:24 +0000
John C Welch wrote:
> You can dig coal with a spoon, and by definition that's "getting the
> job done" too. Or you could use an industrial coal cutter and do
it a
> million times quicker and better and not have to work yourself to
> death, but only if you're aware that such a thing exists.
Not everyone only digs for coal. Some folks only need to plant a few
posies
in the spring. Care to explain to them why they absolutely need an
industrial coal cutter to dig a handful of small holes?
This is drifting well away from the original point. Here is the OP's
original comment, and my response:
I am an Obj-C/Cocoa developer, among other tools and languages, and
continue to be amazed at how painful AppleScripting is...
I pity the non-technical user.
Non-technical users are blessed with the unawareness that they are
being sold short.
In other words, if non-technical users are happy with what they're
doing, that's just great for them. Of course, even with only basic
needs it doesn't guarantee that they aren't still being stiffed - and
even today's merry posy planters may later become ulcer-ridden hole
diggers should their needs start to grow while their knowledge doesn't
- but as folks say: Ignorance is Bliss.
> Education is everything, and a big advantage that professional Cocoa
> developers have is that they already have lots of it.
No, that means they can talk about Cocoa-AppleScript issues more
effectively
than someone who only knows AppleScript. Being a Cocoa/ObjC expert
with some
education in AppleScript does not mean you have the same mindset as
someone
cranking out AppleScript for a living, and in fact, that
"AppleScript only "
person is probably going to be far better at explaining what a good
implementation needs to look like to scripters than someone who only
cares
about it from a dictionary creation POV.
Right, because an imperfect conduit isn't an improvement over no
conduit at all. Your "AppleScript only" people have had the last
fifteen years to explain to professional application developers where
they're going wrong, and how well has that worked? Talk, talk, talk,
talk, bloody talk, and it's all a complete waste of time because the
two parties are using two completely different lingos and talking
straight past one another.
Look, there are only two ways you're ever going to get the brilliant
scripting implementations that you, I and everyone else here wants to
have:
1. Throw sufficiently large sums of MONEY at application developers
that they prostrate themselves at your every whim.
2. Turn them into USERS and FANS of the technology themselves.
> The AppleScript community may be good at many things, but
communicating with
> non-AppleScripters isn't one of them.
That knife cuts both ways, and the other side is just as bad.
Thanks, you've just proven my point for me: Professional programmers
who only know ObjC/Cocoa *do not listen to* 'non-programmers' who only
know AppleScript. [1] How to fix this... hmm, let me think:
Perhaps if we complain at them some more? Didn't work the first time,
but who knows; maybe if we keep doing it long enough they'll start to
listen? (Yeah right; more like hate AppleScript and its users even
more, and point-blank refuse to support the technology at all ever
again.)
OK, well what about we roll up our sleeves, get in there and fix the
problem ourselves? It's the American Way, after all. Uh-huh, and Ron
Paul for President in 2008. Given how resistant most AppleScripters
are to stepping outside of their comfort zone [2], I think we can
safely discount the possibility of vast hordes of ObjC-trained
AppleScript gurus ever going forth into the Cocoa badlands to set the
world to rights.
That pretty much leaves us with my original suggestion: get Cocoa
developers onto our side. Educate them in the AppleScript Way
sufficiently well that while they may not be intimately familiar every
single last nook and cranny of the AppleScript world, they understand
it well enough that they know what a good scripting implementation
should look and behave like. This will have two benefits:
1. What they've already learnt is knowledge that they can convey to
other ObjC developers, and while there's no guarantees here, there is
at least a better chance of them being listened to.
2. They will be a lot more willing and capable of listening to the
True AppleScript Gurus like yourself, since both parties now share
some common language and experience (not to mention some common pain
of the sort inflicted when Cocoa developers get their scripting
designs wrong).
However, these "broken" Cocoa developers are not going to fix
themselves, and since it's the AppleScript community that stands to
gain or lose by far the most here, in practical terms it's the
AppleScript community that is going to have to do all the work in
laying all the ground for this. Yeah, it's unfair that one side has to
do all the work, but suck it up already, because it's the best, and
only (short of waving vast sums of cash again), chance that this will
ever have of happening.
has
p.s. Oh, and you really don't need to tell me of some of the
boneheaded statements that programming weenies manage to come out with
at times when discussing AppleScript, etc. I've only been out on one
of those damned front-lines myself for the last four years, after all.
And if you think it's lonely where you are, come try *my* world
sometime...:p
[1] My statement that ASers aren't good at communicating with non-
ASers wasn't attempting to apportion any specific blame - it takes two
to tango - but squabbling over who's more to blame for this dreadful
communication gap is never going to change anything.
[2] Again, not apportioning blame: such conservatism has certain
advantages too; specifically, immediate concrete rewards versus
immediate concrete investment is a damn good deal for those who only
care about the short-term. Just don't turn around and whine about the
lack of long-term returns afterwards, because you can't have your cake
and eat it as well.
--
http://appscript.sourceforge.net
http://rb-appscript.rubyforge.org
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