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Re: dev tools
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Re: dev tools


  • Subject: Re: dev tools
  • From: has <email@hidden>
  • Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:12:20 +0000

Ed Stockly wrote:

Actually, Has, you're missing the point here, rather spectacularly.
One more experience/programmer/shell scripter/unix expert complaining
about the appleScript language/implementation/tools wouldn't have
generated this much response. Been there, done that.

What you seem to have missed (in the middle of this incredibly
detailed rant about why no one listens to us poor appleScripters) was
that Apple has sent yet another Chris into the breach and this one is
actually asking AppleScripters for feedback on the language and
Technology and, presumably, ready to listen to us.

Of course your first response was to tell him not to ask us, but to
go to you for advice on how to solve appleScript's problems.

Looking at the resulting thread, my first response was the the right one. All that ever happens in public discussions is that folks start listing their Christmas stocking wish lists, full of absolutely trivial stuff like find-and-replace commands for strings and sort commands for lists.


That's not to say these things would be good to have, but it completely fails to address the language's many far more serious failings. For example, go look at the other thread on the differences between properties and variables. This stuff _should_ be simple for beginners to understand, and just as simple for beginners and experts to use. Unfortunately, the AppleScript language has so many warts in this area you can barely see the essential facts for them all - e.g. the fact that properties _are_ variables, for starters.

As for trying to discuss these issues on-list, well, Deivy in that other thread accidentally demonstrates why that doesn't work in practice, claiming that my statements are wrong (they aren't) and then adding semi-incorrect information of his own. There just aren't that many AppleScripters whose knowledge of the language isn't fuzzy or flawed to some degree (e.g. I had a book project go down the tubes a few years back because my own understanding wasn't up to scratch), so any 'hard' discussion of AppleScript's deeper flaws is pretty much guaranteed to degenerate into confusion and noise unless it's moved off-list where the signal-to-noise ratio can be kept at a tolerable level.


Is it just me, or do all your solutions have something to do with
making appleScript no longer appleScript and losting all these non-
technical users who don't know anybetter?

Ideally, it'd be "yes" on the first part, though in all cases it's "no" on the second part. AppleScript ultimately fails as a non- programmer-oriented tool; it is too opaque, too error-prone, too confusing, too unhelpful. I doubt it was state of the art in end-user programming even in 1993, and it's certainly way behind it now. If it was up to me, the existing AppleScript language would be officially relegated to legacy status and kept around solely for backwards- compatibility, and a new language developed to take its place as OS X's new non=programmer-oriented language. Think a "grown-up", keyboard/ mouse-driven version of MIT's Scratch with application scripting and GUI support built-in; call it "AppleScript 3000".


That said, even in a non-ideal world, there is a ton of stuff that could be done to make the existing AppleScript language easier for newcomers to learn and a bit more bearable for everyone to use. For example, cleaning up its tarpit of a variable declaration/binding system so that it is simple and logical to understand and easy and reliable to use. Beginners have a hard enough time just trying to understand the difference between a value and a variable without having to memorise and cope with a bucketload of language warts as well.

It's no wonder that so few AppleScripters have a completely accurate understanding of the language when the damn thing has twice as many flaws as actual features. This would be a serious negative in any language; in an end-user language, however, it's *utterly* unforgivable.


So, to get back to the point...

Here's a bit more feedback from an AppleScript user...

I would like some kind of system notification. Something I could
monitor with an appleScript that would tell me if an application has
quit or if an applet has crashed. It should send an event indicating
that an application has launched or quit (expectedly).

Also, people in the past have complained about not having trig
functions.

Point? Point? You wouldn't recognise a point if it stabbed you in the forehead. FFS. Your wretched "feedback" here is exactly the sort of triflingly insignificant bollocks that completely proves my point. It's not even stuff you need Apple for, since trig functions are already available (e.g. Satimage osax), and a notification FBA would not be a big thing to write. (I'd write it myself if I thought enough ASers would buy copies to make the effort worthwhile.) This endless obsession over such minutiae while simultaneously ignoring far more significant problems is REALLY starting to get my goat. I would liken these sorts of threads to rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, except that this particular boat isn't so much sinking as permanently encased in solid iceberg. It may not be going down, but it isn't exactly moving anywhere either.



The number of people in this community who have enough knowledge and, more importantly, perspective to really make a difference can probably be counted on the fingers of both hands. That's not a criticism of everyone else: in a just world, *nobody* should have to absorb the amount of technical details and overall crapitude that folks like Mark, Matt, myself and other have had to in order to do what we do. This being an unjust world, somebody has to suck up all this crap so that the rest of you don't. At least have the common courtesy to acknowledge that some of us have additional knowledge and insights that we can contribute, and allow us the space to do it efficiently, should Apple wish to hear them.



This is my last reply to this thread. Each time I respond I use up another hour or two that could have been spent on my own work, and since you are absolutely determined not to explore the issue from any point of view but your own I think I'm pretty much just talking to myself anyway. Go paddle your stupid iceberg if you want to; you're not my problem.


has
--
http://appscript.sourceforge.net
http://rb-appscript.rubyforge.org

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