Re: what's in a standard library?
Re: what's in a standard library?
- Subject: Re: what's in a standard library?
- From: "Stockly, Ed" <email@hidden>
- Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 02:14:30 +0000
- Thread-topic: what's in a standard library?
>>>Seeing both an AppleScript standard library and Swift Automation
support in 10.13—improving AppleScript's value and winning Apple's
Automation technology its first NEW MARKET IN A DECADE—is what I would
call a promising start.
My sincere worry is that this (appleScript; automation; macs in business
and professional environments) is all becoming moot.
I don't think apple wants to compete in the workplace. They want to sell
iphones and maybe ipads and related peripherals, and the mac may become
more of peripheral device for personal use than something we'll be able to
continue to automate and use in production in business.
If that's the case then convincing Apple not to deprecate appleScript on
mac is the wrong battle.
The right battle is convincing Apple not to deprecate the mac.
(For those growing tired of the back-and-forth, feel free to skip what
follows.)
>>>I would expect Apple to put standard libraries into /System,
>>>codesigned, and [presumably] saved in run-only format for security. So
>>>I think you're pretty safe there.
That would make them more palatable.
>>>"Gratuitously insulted the intelligence"? I've said often enough that
>>>the Chrises may be competent maintenance coders but their design skills
>>>suck. And I've said often enough too that Sal is a lovely bloke and
>>>great end-user evangelist, but he was a poor product manager, because a
>>>product manager's #1 job is to build new markets and win new customers,
>>>and thus make his employer richer, not to spend his employer's money
>>>building broken products nobody uses.
I stand by what I said. Yes, you have made personal insults to many on the
team, insulting their intelligence is just a part of it. Maybe you should
read some Norman Vincent Peale along with the the programming books?
Further, you don't know what kind of environment Sal had to deal with or
how much actual authority as product manager he had over what was and was
not included in the system and what resources and priorities Sal was given.
He may have been (and probably was) a brilliant product manager who kept
Automation and AppleScript going and relevant for as long as he did
against all odds and constant resistance. I think that narrative is
probably much closer to reality than your: "He's a nice guy but couldn't
do the job and someone better would have made all the difference."
>>>Look, all the evidence to back up my assertions already exists:
>>>Scripting Bridge and JavaScript for Automation are riddled with defects
>>>and don't work correctly with a wide range of commands and apps, and
>>>both have failed to win new Automation users, even though Objective-C,
>>>Python, Ruby, JavaScript, etc are hundreds of times more popular than
>>>AppleScript. Anyone who disagrees with my assessment is welcome to
>>>change my mind by providing the *evidence* I'm wrong. Vague handwavy
>>>accusations will not.
Many of those could have been handled better and perhaps that could have
made all the difference in the world. We can imagine they would have, but
there is literally no evidence it would have made any difference at all.
But even if every single one of your complaints were valid, that does not
justify personal insults. We can be critical and blunt without being
gratuitously insulting.
>>>A standard, easy-to-use system for distributing standalone libraries is
>>>one of those problems that's 8th or 9th on the list, sometime after
>>>"Save AppleScript from Deprecation" and "Add a Standard Library" first.
>>>For now, it's simplest just to distribute your own work in .app and/or
>>>.scptd format, and bundle any required libraries into those each time.
Still not sure why a standard library is at the top of the list. If we're
going to have macs and automation to work with I would suggest:
Making all apple apps scriptable
Improving the scriptability of those that are
Fixing existing bugs
Making it easier for developers to incorporate scripting in their apps
(Whatever language or DE)
Providing better training resources, example scripts and community support
Improve GUI scripting (and fix what's been broken)
Standard libraries might come next.
As for SWIFT automation, I believe they see the future of Appe automation
tied to Siri, and that's were their push will be.
But I don't speak for anyone else here, and I know I may be an outlier
when it comes to some AppleScript issues. (I have been and outlier around
here before, and there were times when I was wrong and everyone else was
right, but there were other times too).
>>>Honestly, Ed, I think you're letting your discomfort at code you can
>>>see but don't understand...
Well, yes and no. I can understand most of the code in the libraries that
I've looked at (probably a small fraction), but I don't enjoy reading it,
I find it frustrating and it does make me uncomfortable. But, my personal
reaction to those scripts aside, the heart of the matter is that I don't
think Apple should (or will) distribute user-readable applescript written
that way. (Read-only and locked up would ease a good part of my concern
here).
>>>....plus personal animosity blind you.
I'm am not blinded. But your concern shouldn't be about my blindness, but
about the decision makers and influencers at Apple who should be your
biggest allies, but whom you have been insulting for years. If your
constant insults have had the effect on them that they would have on most
people, you're screwed.
>>>If you think *I'm* insulting to Apple, here's our beloved Mr Welch in
>>>cracking form:
https://medium.com/@johncwelch/apple-and-sal-119b20c19b5
That was a very good read, thank you. Can you quote the part where you
think he has personally insulted anyone? Aside from the one sub-headline,
where he didn't mention anyone specifically or by name and immediately
recognized he may not be being reasonable. Can you see the difference?
>>>Now I love John: smart, incisive, funny, never suffers fools; but this
>>>is not the time to rage blindly at Apple for a decision that should've
>>>been taken years ago.
That post was not raging blindly. It was more of an appreciation of the
work done by the man whose work you have been insulting for years.
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