Admin: cocoa-dev uses and attitudes (was rudeness and flame retardent)
Admin: cocoa-dev uses and attitudes (was rudeness and flame retardent)
- Subject: Admin: cocoa-dev uses and attitudes (was rudeness and flame retardent)
- From: Chuq Von Rospach <email@hidden>
- Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 12:43:41 -0700
A couple of days ago I asked for a "sense of the list" on how the list is
operating. First, I want to thank everyone who took the time to send their
thoughts -- most of them were very well-thought out, constructive and "team
building" notes that really helped me try to sort out what's going on.
The general sense of the list is -- it ain't broke. And I agree. A typical
response is one like:
>
This list is _the_ singular most informative, and dare I say it
>
entertaining dev community on the net.
>
>
The SNR is excellent, with any total no-brain stuff simply getting
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ignored.
>
*Genuine* flames on this list seem to be very few and very far between,
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and almost always seem to occur between one or two veteran community
>
members (no names mentioned ;). This is something that the list is used
>
to and tolerant of.
On the other hand, "not broke" doesn't imply "perfect".
A fairly typical response from the "newer" members was something like this:
>
As a newbie, I tend to think that a few (and I stress "few") folks are
>
being snippy and some downright rude. (RTFM = Read the effing manual and
>
IS rude.) My personal suggestion to some of the folks would be that if
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that is all they can answer, then say nothing at all.
>
>
At the same time, I don't know that anything needs to be done. I simply
>
consider the source and then learn from those who answer questions in a
>
helpful way.
Between these two pieces, I think it sums up the consensus attitudes of the
list quite well.
The list isn't broken. I don't intend to try to "fix" it. At the same time,
though, I think there are some serious warning signs of impending breakage
that I want to bring forward to you folks, not to tell you what to do, but
to make you aware of what I'm seeing and have you think about how you
contribute to the list and how you can work to make the list even better.
This is a "look in the mirror" test -- between you and you. I'm not telling
you to change your behavior, but I am asking you to think about what I have
to say.
Here are some of the things I'm seeing:
o Newbie intimidation. Some of that always happens. But when you start
seeing a patter of intimidated newbies, it indicates that there's a growing
attitude of intimidation on the list. I'm seeing this here. This is a sign
of what I call "hardening of the email" -- a sign that a list is turning
inward and insular, no longer welcoming new users and fresh blood. It's an
early warning sign of exclusionism and cliquishness. "If you aren't part of
us, you're not welcome. go away".
This is bad, especially for a list where we all should be encouraging the
adoption of Cocoa. If new cocoa programmers don't feel welcome here, that
evangelism is short-circuited. It's in everyone's best interests to
encourage newcomers -- even the existing experts, because generalized
acceptance and use of cocoa will keep you from becoming the next generation
of ADA experts...
o Language issues. Not cocao, but expletives. This list is starting to fail
the, um, bullshit test -- three uses of that term in the last couple of days
that I've seen. While I'm no prude by any means (and anyone who calls me one
can go to, oh, never mind, that's a lame joke), it's a sign of disrespect at
best, and some serious lack of professionalism. I want to remind everyone
that this is NOT the local hacker group that you go to Starbucks with, but a
large group of mostly strangers. Including, perhaps, the person you'll send
your next resume to. What might be acceptable in a group of friends is not
acceptable in a more formal environment -- and this is a more formal
environment. You never know who's watching, and people do remember bad
behavior. Something to keep in mind.
you don't have to agree with each other, but you do have to respect each
other. The language and underlying attitudes among a few users indicate that
respect is being lost -- and I suggest those who've lost it find it again.
This is an area I'm going to be watching more closely. On these lists, you
attack issues, not people. When someone forgets, I plan on stepping in. The
others on the list are not your enemies. They are, at worst, the loyal
opposition. Please treat them with the same respect you expect others to
show you, and always act professionally on the lists.
o The "RTFM" issue. There are problems on both sides of this one, so I've
left it to last.
This is not a place to use as a replacement for doing your homework. This is
a place to get help when the standard help systems fail. Most of the newer
users do this -- but enough see this as a support resource to come to first
instead of last that it creates a problem for all new users, because the
more senior members get tired of it.
It helps to remember that the people on this list are not here to be
teachers, tutors or mentors -- although a good chunk of them are more than
willing to become teachers, tutors or mentors if you approach it properly.
You have to remember, though, that those people are ALSO here to learn, they
aren't paid to be here to teach, and if someone comes into the list and acts
like the list owes them an answer or treats people like the lab consultant
at the college computer center -- they're going to get what they deserve,
which is pretty much nothing.
you're a LOT more likely to get an answer if you frame your question
properly. "how does <this> work?" is a lot less inviting than "I've been
trying to use <this>, and I've read <these things> and it still doesn't make
any sense". By slightly reframing how you ask it, you show you've been
trying it on your own and haven't been able to figure it out. That will make
others a lot more willing to help. This assumes, of course, that you HAVE
tried to work it out on your own. If you haven't, crack the documentation...
On the other side of this, though, the RTFM responses really bother me.
Nobody on this list HAS to answer any question. There are no obligations.
But there's huge difference between not answering a question and standing in
someone's face and yelling "will you go away! you're bothering me!" - and
that's the attitude I see in these responses. It's arrogant, exclusionary
and rather hostile. No wonder the newbies are getting defensive and
intimidated.
If you don't want to answer a question -- DON'T ANSWER IT. There's no
constructive reason to stand up and tell people you don't plan on answering
it. In fact, that's a destructive act, because it ALSO intimidates others
who might have answered from doing so. Just be quiet. If everyone feels the
question shouldn't be answered, it won't be answered. If someone gets
annoying about a question that isn't answered, the list moms will take them
aside and quietly talk to them about the situation -- so if you run into
one, let us know.
This RTFM stuff really bothers me. While RTFM is the proper response for
some of these questions, it doesn't need to be sent with a sneer and a slap
to the face. And it is -- more and more often. I want to see that stopped.
it serves no useful purpose, and it's horribly unprofessional. I expect
better of you folks. No, I demand better.
So here's what I'm expecting of people here:
o respect each other. Be polite. Be professional. If you can't be polite and
professional, be QUIET.
o new users (actually, ALL users do, but new users need to do more) need to
do their homework. This is not the place you ask first. This is the place
you ask last. When you do ask, make it clear what you've already tried --
it'll make it a lot easier to get to the core of the problem you're having
and solve it.
o this list is only as good as what gets put into it. If you put anger,
hostility or abuse into it, guess what'll come back out?
o If you don't want to answer a question -- don't answer it. but don't grab
the microphone to announce you're not answering it. Why should we need to
know? Why should we CARE? Just be quiet on the sidelines, and let someone
else deal with it.
And lest you think *I* get out of here without some action items, here are
mine:
o I need to watch the list more closely for attacks and abuse. If you don't
act professionally, expect to hear from me or one of the other list moms.
o one of the things we've talked about internally is to add some way to
allow each list to have a user-written and user-maintained FAQ. I need to
step up the priority of this and get something available to solve this
problem. We need a way to build better documentation sets that newer users
can use -- and it's my responsibility to find a solution that makes that
possible.
o This list tries to solve a complex set of problems for a complex group of
users. Perhaps the model we use to decide what lists to create isn't the
right one. the lack of an objective-c list (where we do have a java list) is
one aspect of this. I just don't know how to solve it given some of the
other issues I need to manage. but I clearly need to think through the issue
and see if I can come up with a way to improve on what we have. (if you have
comments or suggestions about this, feel free to drop them at me off-list.).
So all in all, I agree the list ain't broke. But I think it's starting to
break. Hopefully we can all work together to stop that in its tracks, and
work to find ways to make this list even better for the greater community of
users.
These are my thoughts. I'd like to hear yours.
Chuq
Lead admin/list mom
lists.apple.com
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