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Re: NSLayoutManager vs BBEdit (Was Re: Carbon vs Cocoa arguments)
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Re: NSLayoutManager vs BBEdit (Was Re: Carbon vs Cocoa arguments)


  • Subject: Re: NSLayoutManager vs BBEdit (Was Re: Carbon vs Cocoa arguments)
  • From: Dennis De Mars <email@hidden>
  • Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:38:06 -0700

Yes, the delay is necessary for the reason you cite. The thing that is insane about drag-and-drop editing in OS X (I wouldn't pick the word insane, but obstinately annoying would be close) is that there is no visual feedback indicating when you are switching from "select" mode to "drag" mode.

In the old days, you would hold down the mouse button until the insertion cursor changed to the arrow cursor, then you could drag. This was a sensible way to do things that permitted the normal selection behavior but also allowed drag-and-drop editing and the visual cue of the cursor changing made it very intuitive and almost effortless.

In contrast, the current scheme where the cursor doesn't change turns the whole drag-and-drop editing feature into a frustrating mess. First, you have to _guess_ how long you have to hold down the mouse button, and if you get it wrong you have to go back and do it again. Very frustrating, and at that point you've already lost any ease-of-use gain over simple copy and paste. Then, even if you do get the pause right, you end up dragging with the cursor still looking like an insertion cursor, which just feels terribly wrong.

Is there some technical reason why the cursor can't change the way it used to?

I note that there is some animosity about the whole concept of drag-and-drop editing among people who didn't come to OS X via OS 9; it almost leads me to believe in a conspiracy theory, like some of the engineers that came over from Next said "Hey, if these Mac OS guys insist on this drag and drop editing, let's make it as clumsy as possible so everyone can see how stupid the whole concept is!"

Well, that seems rather unlikely, but at the very least I think the implementers don't really believe in the feature or else they would be able to grok that without the cursor feedback this feature is almost unusable in practice.

- Dennis D.

On Thursday, October 17, 2002, at 11:43 PM, David Remahl wrote:

The *reason* it (the delay in click-wait) is insane is because there is
absolutely no reason to it! What is the purpose of the delay other than to
piss everybody off? Either have it enabled or disabled, the delay makes no
sense.

There is a reason. When you click and drag in a selected text block, there
are two potential intentions.

1) You want to drag the text.
2) You want to start a new selection at the point where you start the drag,
and end it somewhere else.

If you make a mistake in a selection, and select too much, then there is a
pretty good chance that you are after (2).

It really _is_ a matter of preference.

/ Rgds, David
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  • Follow-Ups:
    • Re: NSLayoutManager vs BBEdit (Was Re: Carbon vs Cocoa arguments)
      • From: Rosyna <email@hidden>
    • Re: NSLayoutManager vs BBEdit (Was Re: Carbon vs Cocoa arguments)
      • From: Brent Gulanowski <email@hidden>
    • Re: NSLayoutManager vs BBEdit (Was Re: Carbon vs Cocoa arguments)
      • From: Scott Anguish <email@hidden>
References: 
 >Re: NSLayoutManager vs BBEdit (Was Re: Carbon vs Cocoa arguments) (From: David Remahl <email@hidden>)

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