[List Mom - AGAIN] Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt
[List Mom - AGAIN] Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt
- Subject: [List Mom - AGAIN] Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt
- From: Scott Anguish <email@hidden>
- Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 02:26:58 -0500
Folks...
As I've said, this is not appropriate for this list, especially with
the crossposting to the gnustep discussion list.
It's simply gone far off the discussion of technical issues of Cocoa
development and morphed into a discussion of the installation issues of
gnustep.
On Feb 7, 2004, at 12:07 AM, Gregory John Casamento wrote:
Wade,
--- "Tregaskis, Wade" <email@hidden> wrote:
Apart from AppKit: Please give me some examples! Or are you just
talking out of the blue?
I think this is where the Cocoa fans are diverging from the GNUstep
fans.
For me, AppKit is what makes Cocoa magic. I could care less about the
Cocoa containers--I am comfortable with STL and don't really get a
kick
out of the cool features of, say, NSArray. For me, Cocoa without
AppKit
is entirely uninteresting. I like Interface Builder, and "springy"
views, and dialog controls that "just work" like you expect, and
control-dragging around to make my own actions and outlets. AFAICS
GNUstep is not going to give me a comparable "ease-of-development" as
Cocoa/AppKit, or even half as easy.
Here, here. This was in fact exactly my point - great, GnuStep
offers a
usable app foundation. But it's not worth the bloat as compared to
writing
my own stuff, or using more lightweight alternatives (e.g. the STL,
SDL/GDK/etc, etc). As a Mac user for over a decade I can't stand to
force my
users to take off an afternoon from work just to install some
libraries my
app requires (let alone the app itself!).
I guarantee that you've installed libs to get apps working after your
initial
installation. Deny it and I'll believe that you're lying as it's a
fact of
life, if you're running Linux. You're users should expect no less.
There are at least two side projects for GNUstep which aim to create a
GNUstep
on Linux distribution.
It's all the stuff on top of that foundation that makes Cocoa great.
Including the development tools. The GnuStep tools are [imho] ugly
and
unintuitive. The PB replacement (named ProjectCenter, I believe) is
in my
experience very unstable, too.
Have you tried Gorm? It's the Interface Builder replacement for
GNUstep.
Given that you can literally take a book for Cocoa and write an app
using the
instructions in it while using Gorm, I would say that it is almost as
intuitive
as IB. If you have any complaints let me know, as I am it's
maintainer.
[I should say, though, that for my current project on a Red Hat (9)
box I'm
using KWrite, because all the default Red Hat dev tools are too much
of a
pain or too unstable. So perhaps I'm biased, or just very unlucky.]
The former, most likely.
PS I could care less how CoreFoundation works under the covers. The
fact that GNUstep is in Objective-C from top to bottom is not a
selling
point for me. If anything, it makes me think that Apple's
implementation will probably be a lot faster :) Objective-C is meant
to
be easy to write, but I don't care how the guts of Cocoa are
written; I
just want them to be fast and stable!
Exactly. Apple's C-based CoreFoundation is an excellent way to drop
down
slightly from the message-passing overhead of ObjC, without losing
all the
benefits (e.g. polymorphism). And the automatic bridging between the
two
levels is a godsend.
CoreFoundation is one thing and one thing only: It was a way for Apple
to
bridge Cocoa with the *ANCIENT* API known as Carbon.
There's another point I must mention - an app compiled with GnuStep
under Red
Hat is an order of magnitude slower, in some areas, than one compiled
using
XCode.
Any hard numbers on this? If you've got a comparison between two
machines of
comparable power, I would like to see this. Are you certain that
apps, in
general, aren't slower on your Linux machine. Unless, of course,
you're
running PPC Linux on a dual boot G4/G5 Mac.
The Gnu ObjC runtime appears to be very slow, contrary to what it's
maintainers claim. For the two projects I've considered using
GnuStep for,
the performance was simply too poor. Since I consequently had to
write [at
the least] the core of both projects in C/C++, I decided to just use
GTK for
the UI anyway, and the STL of course for my containers & algorithms.
A much
better solution, I've found.
Good for you.
Wade Tregaskis
Later, GJC
=====
Gregory John Casamento -- CEO/President Open Logic Corp.
-- bheron on #gnustep, #linuxstep, & #gormtalk ----------------
Please sign the petition against software patents at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/pasp01/petition.html
-- Maintainer of Gorm (featured in April Linux Journal) -------
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