Re: running an external app
Re: running an external app
- Subject: Re: running an external app
- From: "Hamish Allan" <email@hidden>
- Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 22:04:52 +0100
On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 9:03 PM, Peter Duniho <email@hidden> wrote:
> Inasmuch as anyone has an option as to what platform they will support --
> and many of us do -- high barriers discourage careful programmers as much as
> they discourage bad programmers.
I don't see any evidence of that on this list.
> Heck, if anything, I'd think that the fact that they are here _now_, doing
> exactly what you don't want them to do, would be proof enough that
> minimalist documentation isn't an effective barrier to their entry. Your
> claim flies in the face of reality.
Apparently it *is* an effective barrier to their entry, because they
end up here asking questions from the FAQ. If we don't simply attempt
to answer those questions in isolation, but instead point them to the
conceptual documents, they stand a better chance of picking up at
least *some* good Cocoa practice.
>> That's because you don't really believe in conceptual documentation.
>
> Please. Whatever else you do or say, do NOT presume to tell me what I do or
> do not believe in. Your statement is false and offensively arrogant.
How about this, then: "The persona you present on this list doesn't
appear to believe in the importance of familiarity with conceptual
documentation."
>> I believe it's far too easy to miss the wood for the trees when you're
>> trying to learn several design patterns at once just by looking at
>> code.
>
> And what when you have already learned "several design patterns" and have
> reached a point where you just want to get some particular aspect of the
> implementation working? Why should you have to then sift through all of
> those conceptual documents you've already read, to try to find the one
> little nugget that illustrates the piece you need?
I don't see any evidence for people who have learned those design
patterns needing little code snippets to explain what is already
explained in the method documentation. Case in point: NSWorkspace even
goes so far as to include a code reminder of what a singleton is --
someone familiar with the design patterns doesn't even need that much,
let alone any further explanation of how to call launchApplication:.
>>> Honestly, I'm surprised to have to reiterate this point. It's a common
>>> enough problem in every communications medium I'm participated in, and
>>> it's
>>> a constant refrain in forums such as this one to ask people asking
>>> questions
>>> to provide clear, concise code examples rather than just trying to
>>> explain
>>> in English what their problem is. I'd have thought this point was a
>>> given.
>>
>> Often on this list I see people answering very specific questions with
>> "What are you actually looking to do with this? There may be a better
>> approach."
>
> So what? That's not relevant at all to the point I'm making, never mind
> does it refute it.
Don't chop my points in half, then. The "this" in the "this is the
very opposite" below makes more sense if it actually refers to
something :P
>> This is the very opposite of the "snippets illustrate best"
>> school of thought, and the fact that many of this list's members take
>> a holistic approach is one of the most valuable things about it.
>
> You are completely missing the point. Your love of the "holistic approach"
> is making you blind to the question of other aspects of documentation. Not
> every documentation issue is involved with the question of introducing
> someone to the topic.
Indeed; that's what the API reference is for. Horses for courses. The
API is for people who've already read the conceptual documentation,
and don't need to be reminded of how to invoke a method.
> I think it's wonderful that you've been able to completely memorize every
> aspect of the Cocoa framework and have no need to ever see _any_ examples of
> how to accomplish _any_ specific task in Cocoa. But you're an anomaly.
> Even experts, most of them anyway, need to look things up once in awhile.
> Making them go back and review the introductory texts every time just to
> find what they're looking for is just silly.
If you think that experts need to be reminded of what method
invocation syntax looks like each time they read a method declaration,
then you and I have a very different idea of what constitutes an
expert.
Hamish
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