Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 8, Issue 171
Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 8, Issue 171
- Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 8, Issue 171
- From: Scott Geffert <email@hidden>
- Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 22:29:44 -0400
I for one am horrified that Apple, once a leader in color management has simply walked away from color management. It seems to me like they are leaving themselves exposed to competition and devalue the brand overall by not leading in this area. What is disturbing is the fact that the technology exists (ICC) and is standardized and proven.
I simply cannot understand the logic here.
Scott
On Aug 1, 2011, at 9:42 AM, email@hidden wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Color Management for iPad? (St?phane Beaudry)
> 2. Re: Color Management for iPad? (Jan-Peter Homann)
> 3. Re: Color Management for iPad? (Stephane Beaudry)
> 4. Re: Color Management for iPad? (Joseph Zhan)
> 5. Re: Color Management for iPad? (Tom Lianza)
> 6. Re: Color Management for iPad? (Bruce Andrew Jamieson)
> 7. Re: Color Management for iPad? (Tom Lianza)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 16:15:19 -0400
> From: St?phane Beaudry <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Color Management for iPad?
> To: email@hidden
> Cc: email@hidden
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Greetings,
>
> I have worked as a developer for color management applications for over 6 years (Windows & MacOS) but I have spent the last two years and half as a mobile developer (iOS, Android and Blackberry) for other fields of application. When I first started on the iPhone, I tried out of curiosity to see how well color management was supported on it. Of course, it wasn't. At all.
>
> As of iOS 4.3, there is still no general color management support, no matter what the Quartz API promises. The whole ColorSync API is also missing from the iOS.
>
> Some portfolio viewing applications advise their users to save the images using the sRGB color space since they claim it is the closest match for the iPad's native color space. Of course, this is not satisfactory for a useful preview. Also, it would be very interesting to get additional information from the image such as matching tolerances, switching between rendering intents, etc.
>
> There are indeed ways to build an iPad application which performs the tasks of reading profiles and performing the proper conversions for images. The iOS frameworks do provide useful tools to edit even large files efficiently. Communicating between desktop and mobile applications has never been easier and may even get better when iOS 5 gets released. In short, there is a lot developers can already do to create interesting applications related to color management. It is quite challenging because mobile frameworks are still struggling to grow up (just take a look at Bluetooth on the iPad) but it is not impossible.
>
>
> Stéphane Beaudry
> Lead Developer / Mobile Applications
> Innobec Technologies Inc.
>
>
> Le 2011-07-30 à 16:52, Jan-Peter Homann a écrit :
>
>> Hello to all,
>> I just subscribed to the colorsync developers list to ask some questions.
>> It may helps if other people also subscribe and state, that they are interested for an answer.
>>
>> Jan-Peter
>>
>> ******
>> Following questions I have sent
>> *******
>>
>> Hello to all,
>>
>> The iOS documentation states, that ICC-profiles should be supported through Quartz.
>>
>> But user tests have shown, that currently no Apple iOS application for iPad seems to support ICC-profiles.
>>
>> Is this a problem of the current Apple applications or are there differences in Quartz ICC-profile support between iOS and Mac OS X, which are not mentioned in the official documentation ?
>>
>> I´m also interested on:
>> - does iOS 4 provides a color characterization / profile for the display ?
>> - If yes, is this an ICC-profile or an internal format because of speed optimization ?
>> - if yes, is there any documentation about it ?
>> - if yes, is this hardcoded, or can a developer change the display color characterization / profile ?
>>
>> Thanks and best regards
>> Jan-Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 30.07.11 18:54, schrieb Louis Dery:
>>> In order to validate that ICC profiles are not used in iOS4 basic apps like "Mail" (and "Photos"), just send to yourself an e-mail with picture with two different ICC profile embedded∑
>>> one with Adobe RGB and a copy of this picture with a different ICC profile embedded (assigned) like ProPhoto RGB.
>>> You will see in Mail (on the iPad) that they look the same! Check this e-mail on you Mac with "Mail" app and will see that they are different!
>>>
>>>
>>> Hope this is more clear when I mentioned that color management is not implemented in iOS4, like it is on Mac OS X.
>>>
>>> Louis Dery
>>> www.couleur911.com _______________________________________________
>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>>
>>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ---------- Please note the new adress --------------
>>
>> homann colormanagement --------- fon +49 30 611 075 18
>> Jan-Peter Homann ------------ mobile +49 171 54 70 358
>> Cotheniusstr. 3 -------- http://www.colormanagement.de
>> 10407 Berlin -------- mailto:email@hidden
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>
>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:57:54 +0200
> From: Jan-Peter Homann <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Color Management for iPad?
> To: St?phane Beaudry <email@hidden>
> Cc: email@hidden
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Hello Stéphane,
> Thanks for your very useful reply. Now it is clear, that the iOS /
> Quartz documentation from Apple is misleading to developers.
> Apple states inside the iOS documentation: "The Quartz 2D API is easy to
> use and provides ... advanced color management"
>
> http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/GraphicsImaging/Conceptual/drawingwithquartz2d/Introduction/Introduction.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30001066
>
>
> If all the advanced colormanagement of Quartz can´t be used in iOS,
> Apple has to change its iOS documentation.
>
> Question to John Gnaegy, Manager of this list:
> - Does Apple know, that the iOS / Quartz documentation is wrong
> concerning color management ?
> - Are there any plans from Apple to provide a correct documentation ?
> - Are there any plans from Apple to provide a ColorSync API for iOS ?
>
> Best regards
> Jan-Peter
>
>
> Am 31.07.11 22:15, schrieb Stéphane Beaudry:
>> Greetings,
>>
>> I have worked as a developer for color management applications for over 6 years (Windows& MacOS) but I have spent the last two years and half as a mobile developer (iOS, Android and Blackberry) for other fields of application. When I first started on the iPhone, I tried out of curiosity to see how well color management was supported on it. Of course, it wasn't. At all.
>>
>> As of iOS 4.3, there is still no general color management support, no matter what the Quartz API promises. The whole ColorSync API is also missing from the iOS.
>>
>> Some portfolio viewing applications advise their users to save the images using the sRGB color space since they claim it is the closest match for the iPad's native color space. Of course, this is not satisfactory for a useful preview. Also, it would be very interesting to get additional information from the image such as matching tolerances, switching between rendering intents, etc.
>>
>> There are indeed ways to build an iPad application which performs the tasks of reading profiles and performing the proper conversions for images. The iOS frameworks do provide useful tools to edit even large files efficiently. Communicating between desktop and mobile applications has never been easier and may even get better when iOS 5 gets released. In short, there is a lot developers can already do to create interesting applications related to color management. It is quite challenging because mobile frameworks are still struggling to grow up (just take a look at Bluetooth on the iPad) but it is not impossible.
>>
>>
>> Stéphane Beaudry
>> Lead Developer / Mobile Applications
>> Innobec Technologies Inc.
>>
>>
>> Le 2011-07-30 à 16:52, Jan-Peter Homann a écrit :
>>
>>> Hello to all,
>>> I just subscribed to the colorsync developers list to ask some questions.
>>> It may helps if other people also subscribe and state, that they are interested for an answer.
>>>
>>> Jan-Peter
>>>
>>> ******
>>> Following questions I have sent
>>> *******
>>>
>>> Hello to all,
>>>
>>> The iOS documentation states, that ICC-profiles should be supported through Quartz.
>>>
>>> But user tests have shown, that currently no Apple iOS application for iPad seems to support ICC-profiles.
>>>
>>> Is this a problem of the current Apple applications or are there differences in Quartz ICC-profile support between iOS and Mac OS X, which are not mentioned in the official documentation ?
>>>
>>> I´m also interested on:
>>> - does iOS 4 provides a color characterization / profile for the display ?
>>> - If yes, is this an ICC-profile or an internal format because of speed optimization ?
>>> - if yes, is there any documentation about it ?
>>> - if yes, is this hardcoded, or can a developer change the display color characterization / profile ?
>>>
>>> Thanks and best regards
>>> Jan-Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 30.07.11 18:54, schrieb Louis Dery:
>>>> In order to validate that ICC profiles are not used in iOS4 basic apps like "Mail" (and "Photos"), just send to yourself an e-mail with picture with two different ICC profile embedded∑
>>>> one with Adobe RGB and a copy of this picture with a different ICC profile embedded (assigned) like ProPhoto RGB.
>>>> You will see in Mail (on the iPad) that they look the same! Check this e-mail on you Mac with "Mail" app and will see that they are different!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hope this is more clear when I mentioned that color management is not implemented in iOS4, like it is on Mac OS X.
>>>>
>>>> Louis Dery
>>>> www.couleur911.com _______________________________________________
>>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>>>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>>>
>>>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ---------- Please note the new adress --------------
>>>
>>> homann colormanagement --------- fon +49 30 611 075 18
>>> Jan-Peter Homann ------------ mobile +49 171 54 70 358
>>> Cotheniusstr. 3 -------- http://www.colormanagement.de
>>> 10407 Berlin -------- mailto:email@hidden
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>>
>>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ---------- Please note the new adress --------------
>
> homann colormanagement --------- fon +49 30 611 075 18
> Jan-Peter Homann ------------ mobile +49 171 54 70 358
> Cotheniusstr. 3 -------- http://www.colormanagement.de
> 10407 Berlin -------- mailto:email@hidden
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:29:59 -0400
> From: Stephane Beaudry <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Color Management for iPad?
> To: "email@hidden" <email@hidden>
> Cc: "email@hidden"
> <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> If you read the Color and Color Spaces section of that documentation, you will notice that a shaded box placed before Device-Independent Color Spaces specifies that iOS does not support device-independent color spaces.
>
> The misleading fact is that they use the same generic documentation for both iOS and MacOS X and list all features, then specify unsupported functionalities for iOS somewhere in the subsections themselves.
>
> Regards,
>
> Stéphane Beaudry
>
>
> Le 2011-08-01 à 03:57, Jan-Peter Homann <email@hidden> a écrit :
>
>> Hello Stéphane,
>> Thanks for your very useful reply. Now it is clear, that the iOS / Quartz documentation from Apple is misleading to developers.
>> Apple states inside the iOS documentation: "The Quartz 2D API is easy to use and provides ... advanced color management"
>>
>> http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/GraphicsImaging/Conceptual/drawingwithquartz2d/Introduction/Introduction.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30001066
>>
>> If all the advanced colormanagement of Quartz can´t be used in iOS, Apple has to change its iOS documentation.
>>
>> Question to John Gnaegy, Manager of this list:
>> - Does Apple know, that the iOS / Quartz documentation is wrong concerning color management ?
>> - Are there any plans from Apple to provide a correct documentation ?
>> - Are there any plans from Apple to provide a ColorSync API for iOS ?
>>
>> Best regards
>> Jan-Peter
>>
>>
>> Am 31.07.11 22:15, schrieb Stéphane Beaudry:
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> I have worked as a developer for color management applications for over 6 years (Windows& MacOS) but I have spent the last two years and half as a mobile developer (iOS, Android and Blackberry) for other fields of application. When I first started on the iPhone, I tried out of curiosity to see how well color management was supported on it. Of course, it wasn't. At all.
>>>
>>> As of iOS 4.3, there is still no general color management support, no matter what the Quartz API promises. The whole ColorSync API is also missing from the iOS.
>>>
>>> Some portfolio viewing applications advise their users to save the images using the sRGB color space since they claim it is the closest match for the iPad's native color space. Of course, this is not satisfactory for a useful preview. Also, it would be very interesting to get additional information from the image such as matching tolerances, switching between rendering intents, etc.
>>>
>>> There are indeed ways to build an iPad application which performs the tasks of reading profiles and performing the proper conversions for images. The iOS frameworks do provide useful tools to edit even large files efficiently. Communicating between desktop and mobile applications has never been easier and may even get better when iOS 5 gets released. In short, there is a lot developers can already do to create interesting applications related to color management. It is quite challenging because mobile frameworks are still struggling to grow up (just take a look at Bluetooth on the iPad) but it is not impossible.
>>>
>>>
>>> Stéphane Beaudry
>>> Lead Developer / Mobile Applications
>>> Innobec Technologies Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 2011-07-30 à 16:52, Jan-Peter Homann a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Hello to all,
>>>> I just subscribed to the colorsync developers list to ask some questions.
>>>> It may helps if other people also subscribe and state, that they are interested for an answer.
>>>>
>>>> Jan-Peter
>>>>
>>>> ******
>>>> Following questions I have sent
>>>> *******
>>>>
>>>> Hello to all,
>>>>
>>>> The iOS documentation states, that ICC-profiles should be supported through Quartz.
>>>>
>>>> But user tests have shown, that currently no Apple iOS application for iPad seems to support ICC-profiles.
>>>>
>>>> Is this a problem of the current Apple applications or are there differences in Quartz ICC-profile support between iOS and Mac OS X, which are not mentioned in the official documentation ?
>>>>
>>>> I´m also interested on:
>>>> - does iOS 4 provides a color characterization / profile for the display ?
>>>> - If yes, is this an ICC-profile or an internal format because of speed optimization ?
>>>> - if yes, is there any documentation about it ?
>>>> - if yes, is this hardcoded, or can a developer change the display color characterization / profile ?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks and best regards
>>>> Jan-Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 30.07.11 18:54, schrieb Louis Dery:
>>>>> In order to validate that ICC profiles are not used in iOS4 basic apps like "Mail" (and "Photos"), just send to yourself an e-mail with picture with two different ICC profile embedded╜
>>>>> one with Adobe RGB and a copy of this picture with a different ICC profile embedded (assigned) like ProPhoto RGB.
>>>>> You will see in Mail (on the iPad) that they look the same! Check this e-mail on you Mac with "Mail" app and will see that they are different!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this is more clear when I mentioned that color management is not implemented in iOS4, like it is on Mac OS X.
>>>>>
>>>>> Louis Dery
>>>>> www.couleur911.com _______________________________________________
>>>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>>>>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>>>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>>>>
>>>>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ---------- Please note the new adress --------------
>>>>
>>>> homann colormanagement --------- fon +49 30 611 075 18
>>>> Jan-Peter Homann ------------ mobile +49 171 54 70 358
>>>> Cotheniusstr. 3 -------- http://www.colormanagement.de
>>>> 10407 Berlin -------- mailto:email@hidden
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>>>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>>>
>>>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ---------- Please note the new adress --------------
>>
>> homann colormanagement --------- fon +49 30 611 075 18
>> Jan-Peter Homann ------------ mobile +49 171 54 70 358
>> Cotheniusstr. 3 -------- http://www.colormanagement.de
>> 10407 Berlin -------- mailto:email@hidden
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 21:30:10 +0800
> From: Joseph Zhan <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Color Management for iPad?
> To: Stephane Beaudry <email@hidden>
> Cc: "email@hidden"
> <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> There is one solution from DataColor(The company who has Spyder Products) for iPad available for FREE now:
>
> http://spyder.datacolor.com/product-ms-spydergallery.php
>
> On 1 Aug, 2011, at 9:29 PM, Stephane Beaudry <email@hidden> wrote:
>
>> If you read the Color and Color Spaces section of that documentation, you will notice that a shaded box placed before Device-Independent Color Spaces specifies that iOS does not support device-independent color spaces.
>>
>> The misleading fact is that they use the same generic documentation for both iOS and MacOS X and list all features, then specify unsupported functionalities for iOS somewhere in the subsections themselves.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Stéphane Beaudry
>>
>>
>> Le 2011-08-01 à 03:57, Jan-Peter Homann <email@hidden> a écrit :
>>
>>> Hello Stéphane,
>>> Thanks for your very useful reply. Now it is clear, that the iOS / Quartz documentation from Apple is misleading to developers.
>>> Apple states inside the iOS documentation: "The Quartz 2D API is easy to use and provides ... advanced color management"
>>>
>>> http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/GraphicsImaging/Conceptual/drawingwithquartz2d/Introduction/Introduction.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30001066
>>>
>>> If all the advanced colormanagement of Quartz can´t be used in iOS, Apple has to change its iOS documentation.
>>>
>>> Question to John Gnaegy, Manager of this list:
>>> - Does Apple know, that the iOS / Quartz documentation is wrong concerning color management ?
>>> - Are there any plans from Apple to provide a correct documentation ?
>>> - Are there any plans from Apple to provide a ColorSync API for iOS ?
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Jan-Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 31.07.11 22:15, schrieb Stéphane Beaudry:
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> I have worked as a developer for color management applications for over 6 years (Windows& MacOS) but I have spent the last two years and half as a mobile developer (iOS, Android and Blackberry) for other fields of application. When I first started on the iPhone, I tried out of curiosity to see how well color management was supported on it. Of course, it wasn't. At all.
>>>>
>>>> As of iOS 4.3, there is still no general color management support, no matter what the Quartz API promises. The whole ColorSync API is also missing from the iOS.
>>>>
>>>> Some portfolio viewing applications advise their users to save the images using the sRGB color space since they claim it is the closest match for the iPad's native color space. Of course, this is not satisfactory for a useful preview. Also, it would be very interesting to get additional information from the image such as matching tolerances, switching between rendering intents, etc.
>>>>
>>>> There are indeed ways to build an iPad application which performs the tasks of reading profiles and performing the proper conversions for images. The iOS frameworks do provide useful tools to edit even large files efficiently. Communicating between desktop and mobile applications has never been easier and may even get better when iOS 5 gets released. In short, there is a lot developers can already do to create interesting applications related to color management. It is quite challenging because mobile frameworks are still struggling to grow up (just take a look at Bluetooth on the iPad) but it is not impossible.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stéphane Beaudry
>>>> Lead Developer / Mobile Applications
>>>> Innobec Technologies Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 2011-07-30 à 16:52, Jan-Peter Homann a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> Hello to all,
>>>>> I just subscribed to the colorsync developers list to ask some questions.
>>>>> It may helps if other people also subscribe and state, that they are interested for an answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan-Peter
>>>>>
>>>>> ******
>>>>> Following questions I have sent
>>>>> *******
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello to all,
>>>>>
>>>>> The iOS documentation states, that ICC-profiles should be supported through Quartz.
>>>>>
>>>>> But user tests have shown, that currently no Apple iOS application for iPad seems to support ICC-profiles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this a problem of the current Apple applications or are there differences in Quartz ICC-profile support between iOS and Mac OS X, which are not mentioned in the official documentation ?
>>>>>
>>>>> I´m also interested on:
>>>>> - does iOS 4 provides a color characterization / profile for the display ?
>>>>> - If yes, is this an ICC-profile or an internal format because of speed optimization ?
>>>>> - if yes, is there any documentation about it ?
>>>>> - if yes, is this hardcoded, or can a developer change the display color characterization / profile ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks and best regards
>>>>> Jan-Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 30.07.11 18:54, schrieb Louis Dery:
>>>>>> In order to validate that ICC profiles are not used in iOS4 basic apps like "Mail" (and "Photos"), just send to yourself an e-mail with picture with two different ICC profile embedded╜
>>>>>> one with Adobe RGB and a copy of this picture with a different ICC profile embedded (assigned) like ProPhoto RGB.
>>>>>> You will see in Mail (on the iPad) that they look the same! Check this e-mail on you Mac with "Mail" app and will see that they are different!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope this is more clear when I mentioned that color management is not implemented in iOS4, like it is on Mac OS X.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Louis Dery
>>>>>> www.couleur911.com _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>>>>>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>>>>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ---------- Please note the new adress --------------
>>>>>
>>>>> homann colormanagement --------- fon +49 30 611 075 18
>>>>> Jan-Peter Homann ------------ mobile +49 171 54 70 358
>>>>> Cotheniusstr. 3 -------- http://www.colormanagement.de
>>>>> 10407 Berlin -------- mailto:email@hidden
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>>>>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>>>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>>>>
>>>>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ---------- Please note the new adress --------------
>>>
>>> homann colormanagement --------- fon +49 30 611 075 18
>>> Jan-Peter Homann ------------ mobile +49 171 54 70 358
>>> Cotheniusstr. 3 -------- http://www.colormanagement.de
>>> 10407 Berlin -------- mailto:email@hidden
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>
>> This email sent to email@hidden
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:25:16 -0400
> From: Tom Lianza <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Color Management for iPad?
> To: email@hidden, St?phane Beaudry
> <email@hidden>
> Cc: email@hidden
> Message-ID: <CA5C217C.A1A6%email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi to all,
>
> The question of mobile color management has come up often and I would like
> to take few moments to discuss some of the issues so people have a better
> understanding of the issues. This is an area of discussion within the ICC
> and we are trying to sponsor a "Color Management on the Web and mobile
> environments" conference in November in San Jose.
>
>
> 1. The mobile network providers don't want to see a lot of images on the
> network. They use bandwidth (which you are paying for) and it can have a
> real impact on through put in crowded urban networks. Mobile providers,
> especially in the US, would rather not have to deal with the issues images
> at all.
>
> 2.ICC profiles are effectively user-supplied, binary, meta data which is an
> absolute negative security issue on a mobile network. The reason that phone
> applications are so carefully screened and the development environments are
> so tightly bound to the OS is the fundamental security issue. An
> application CANNOT BE ALLOWED to bring down a phone, hence they will be
> restricted to very carefully controlled application memory space. I
> seriously doubt that user supplied profiles will ever be used at the highest
> level in a mobile device. At best, it will be application based. An app on
> a phone is far more restricted than an application on the desktop. The
> browser issue is more complex because it should run seamlessly in both
> worlds.
>
> 3. For traditional color management to work, there must be a source and a
> destination defined BEFORE RENDERING. The question of untagged (source
> unknown) has generally been defined to be sRGB. If that assumption is
> followed in the system, a very good rendering of sRGB to display can be done
> with a relatively simple transformation. The fact is that nearly all mobile
> devices do this in the hardware pipeline. The need to accommodate a wide
> range of display technologies is well understood and graphics engine
> designers have various color correction hardware built into the chip. From
> the standpoint of the mobile designer, they already have done "color
> management" and the fact that you can't see it or change it is of no
> consequence to them. If you render the image to sRGB, leave it untagged,
> there will be no major surprises, unless something stupid happens in the
> upload process.
>
> 4. I cannot understand how a photographer would allow some alien device,
> with unknown rendering characteristics, perform color management on the
> image. Given that the trend is towards lower gamut, high luminance
> displays, it is very likely that the output after late binding color
> management will clip, in relative colorimetric mode. If the manufacturer
> decides on a perceptual rendering, then the color you see will be very much
> determined by the taste of the platform vendor, not you the photographer.
> In any instance, the result that the end user sees, will not be the image
> the photographer saw.
>
> When it comes to general color management on the Web and mobile devices, be
> careful what you wish for...it can get ugly and you would never see it
> unless you happened to have the same mobile device as the customer. I am
> trying to get developers and users at the same table during the planned
> conference. Getting angry users is easy, getting willing developers...not
> so easy...
>
> Regards,
> Tom
>
>
> On 8/1/11 3:57 AM, "Jan-Peter Homann" <email@hidden> wrote:
>
>> Hello Stéphane,
>> Thanks for your very useful reply. Now it is clear, that the iOS /
>> Quartz documentation from Apple is misleading to developers.
>> Apple states inside the iOS documentation: "The Quartz 2D API is easy to
>> use and provides ... advanced color management"
>>
>> http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/GraphicsImaging/Conceptu
>> al/drawingwithquartz2d/Introduction/Introduction.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30
>> 001066
>>
>>
>> If all the advanced colormanagement of Quartz can´t be used in iOS,
>> Apple has to change its iOS documentation.
>>
>> Question to John Gnaegy, Manager of this list:
>> - Does Apple know, that the iOS / Quartz documentation is wrong
>> concerning color management ?
>> - Are there any plans from Apple to provide a correct documentation ?
>> - Are there any plans from Apple to provide a ColorSync API for iOS ?
>>
>> Best regards
>> Jan-Peter
>>
>>
>> Am 31.07.11 22:15, schrieb Stéphane Beaudry:
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> I have worked as a developer for color management applications for over 6
>>> years (Windows& MacOS) but I have spent the last two years and half as a
>>> mobile developer (iOS, Android and Blackberry) for other fields of
>>> application. When I first started on the iPhone, I tried out of curiosity to
>>> see how well color management was supported on it. Of course, it wasn't. At
>>> all.
>>>
>>> As of iOS 4.3, there is still no general color management support, no matter
>>> what the Quartz API promises. The whole ColorSync API is also missing from
>>> the iOS.
>>>
>>> Some portfolio viewing applications advise their users to save the images
>>> using the sRGB color space since they claim it is the closest match for the
>>> iPad's native color space. Of course, this is not satisfactory for a useful
>>> preview. Also, it would be very interesting to get additional information
>>> from the image such as matching tolerances, switching between rendering
>>> intents, etc.
>>>
>>> There are indeed ways to build an iPad application which performs the tasks
>>> of reading profiles and performing the proper conversions for images. The iOS
>>> frameworks do provide useful tools to edit even large files efficiently.
>>> Communicating between desktop and mobile applications has never been easier
>>> and may even get better when iOS 5 gets released. In short, there is a lot
>>> developers can already do to create interesting applications related to color
>>> management. It is quite challenging because mobile frameworks are still
>>> struggling to grow up (just take a look at Bluetooth on the iPad) but it is
>>> not impossible.
>>>
>>>
>>> Stéphane Beaudry
>>> Lead Developer / Mobile Applications
>>> Innobec Technologies Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 2011-07-30 à 16:52, Jan-Peter Homann a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Hello to all,
>>>> I just subscribed to the colorsync developers list to ask some questions.
>>>> It may helps if other people also subscribe and state, that they are
>>>> interested for an answer.
>>>>
>>>> Jan-Peter
>>>>
>>>> ******
>>>> Following questions I have sent
>>>> *******
>>>>
>>>> Hello to all,
>>>>
>>>> The iOS documentation states, that ICC-profiles should be supported through
>>>> Quartz.
>>>>
>>>> But user tests have shown, that currently no Apple iOS application for iPad
>>>> seems to support ICC-profiles.
>>>>
>>>> Is this a problem of the current Apple applications or are there differences
>>>> in Quartz ICC-profile support between iOS and Mac OS X, which are not
>>>> mentioned in the official documentation ?
>>>>
>>>> I´m also interested on:
>>>> - does iOS 4 provides a color characterization / profile for the display ?
>>>> - If yes, is this an ICC-profile or an internal format because of speed
>>>> optimization ?
>>>> - if yes, is there any documentation about it ?
>>>> - if yes, is this hardcoded, or can a developer change the display color
>>>> characterization / profile ?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks and best regards
>>>> Jan-Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 30.07.11 18:54, schrieb Louis Dery:
>>>>> In order to validate that ICC profiles are not used in iOS4 basic apps like
>>>>> "Mail" (and "Photos"), just send to yourself an e-mail with picture with
>>>>> two different ICC profile embedded…
>>>>> one with Adobe RGB and a copy of this picture with a different ICC profile
>>>>> embedded (assigned) like ProPhoto RGB.
>>>>> You will see in Mail (on the iPad) that they look the same! Check this
>>>>> e-mail on you Mac with "Mail" app and will see that they are different!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this is more clear when I mentioned that color management is not
>>>>> implemented in iOS4, like it is on Mac OS X.
>>>>>
>>>>> Louis Dery
>>>>> www.couleur911.com _______________________________________________
>>>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>>>>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>>>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>>>> ment.de
>>>>>
>>>>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ---------- Please note the new adress --------------
>>>>
>>>> homann colormanagement --------- fon +49 30 611 075 18
>>>> Jan-Peter Homann ------------ mobile +49 171 54 70 358
>>>> Cotheniusstr. 3 -------- http://www.colormanagement.de
>>>> 10407 Berlin -------- mailto:email@hidden
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
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>>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>>> com
>>>>
>>>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying attachments may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and any attachments. Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents of this message by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email or any attachments.
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:32:49 -0400
> From: Bruce Andrew Jamieson <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Color Management for iPad?
> To: email@hidden
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> According to that iOS developer link it appears that iOS is capable of color management activities but in practice it sure looks like no one cared enough about it to implement it. That Apple made color management opaque on iOS is a thought made quite clear.
>
> I suppose if we had the time, we could effectively color manage our images "upstream." Here's what I propose:
>
> 1. With whatever profiling software you may be using, get the color numbers for the swatches it uses to create the profile.
> 2. Create images using those profiles, or make a tiny web site that can cycle through those colors.
> 3. With a color reading device connected to your computer, read the colors on the iOS device.
> 4. Create a device profile.
> 5. Convert your images to your iOS profile and put them on your iOS device.
> 6. Profit.
>
> This could work if you want to use your expensive software and equipment you already have, though it might be easier if you just use the Spyder app. I can't tell if Spyder wants you to open images using its own iOS app (wherein the profile only works in the Spyder app) or if the profile created affects the entire system.
>
> Enjoy,
> Bruce Jamieson
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:41:34 -0400
> From: Tom Lianza <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Color Management for iPad?
> To: Bruce Andrew Jamieson <email@hidden>,
> email@hidden
> Message-ID: <CA5C254E.A1AE%email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> What you have proposed here is absolutely correct. From what I have seen in
> the spyder application, it will only work in their own viewer application
> which is fine if their application is what you want to use to view the
> images.
>
> The key point, in my view, is to treat the iPad like a printer. Create your
> image in a color managed environment, edit it, view, convert to profile and
> then make sure you haven't damaged it too much. Then download the image to
> the iPad, UNTAGGED.
>
> I don't think most photographers understand the complexities of late binding
> color management and the probability of unintended artifacts as a result of
> the color transformations. Do the color management on your desktop, then
> download the images. The best surprise, is no surprise....
>
> Regards,
> Tom
>
>
> On 8/1/11 9:32 AM, "Bruce Andrew Jamieson" <email@hidden> wrote:
>
>> According to that iOS developer link it appears that iOS is capable of color
>> management activities but in practice it sure looks like no one cared enough
>> about it to implement it. That Apple made color management opaque on iOS is a
>> thought made quite clear.
>>
>> I suppose if we had the time, we could effectively color manage our images
>> "upstream." Here's what I propose:
>>
>> 1. With whatever profiling software you may be using, get the color numbers
>> for the swatches it uses to create the profile.
>> 2. Create images using those profiles, or make a tiny web site that can cycle
>> through those colors.
>> 3. With a color reading device connected to your computer, read the colors on
>> the iOS device.
>> 4. Create a device profile.
>> 5. Convert your images to your iOS profile and put them on your iOS device.
>> 6. Profit.
>>
>> This could work if you want to use your expensive software and equipment you
>> already have, though it might be easier if you just use the Spyder app. I
>> can't tell if Spyder wants you to open images using its own iOS app (wherein
>> the profile only works in the Spyder app) or if the profile created affects
>> the entire system.
>>
>> Enjoy,
>> Bruce Jamieson _______________________________________________
>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>
>> This email sent to email@hidden
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>
>
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