RE: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 12, Issue 81
RE: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 12, Issue 81
- Subject: RE: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 12, Issue 81
- From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
- Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 22:18:14 -0400
Mike,
I feel your pain completely. May I add that "printing inks that fit the ISO specification", presumably ISO-2846 is not a guarantee of much, in my humble experience. This being said, in my humble opinion, from your color management policy, there should only be *one* logical next step when the job hits the printer, and that is to honor your hard earned money. By that, I mean, if a customer takes the pain of optimizing separations for Fogra47 then the "sensible printer" can only either a) convert from Fogra47 to his press conditions, preserving your intent along the way, or b) have a printing setup (curves, inks, substrate) that closely mimics Fogra47.
But I realize that this kind of "advanced" approach to color management while not rocket science may not be within of every printer.
If I were in your shoes, I would communicate your color expectations on your proof. There ought to be a line, somewhere, directed at the smart people that manage color professionally with the printers that you deal with. If you make your expectations clear then it should form the basis of any open discussion.
Best / Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden] On Behalf Of Mike Stewart
Sent: 6 juillet 2015 09:00
To: colorsync-users
Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 12, Issue 81
Thanks for the reply Roger. You mention that a given ink/substrate combination becomes manageable if within spec. That works just fine and so it should. However, OBA's in uncoated stocks play havoc with specifications. We are proofing on the actual printing stock using inks that fit the ISO ink specification. We put colour bars on every proof. The problem is what is the "specification". What do we tell the printer. Do we say we are proofing to Fogra47 on this particular stock? What good is the colour bar now that there is no real specification to adhere to? - Mike
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 2:00 PM, <email@hidden>
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> 1. RE: dealing with printers (Roger Breton)
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> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2015 08:28:57 -0400
> From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
> To: email@hidden, email@hidden
> Subject: RE: dealing with printers
> Message-ID: <e87901d0b654$ffd4ab20$ff7e0160$@videotron.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
>
> I say, the only thing that really helps, in this area, on the part of
> the printer, is its willingness to adhere to some existing standard or
> published specification. I work with a new printer these days and as
> long as I am able to sway the behavior of the press on a given
> substrate close to a known condition like GRACoL20xx then, all of a
> sudden, color becomes "manageable". But it takes commitment from
> management to do so. Usually, the typical policy is to have the proof
> reflect whatever color appearances the press creates, given a set of
> inks and substrate combination. There are pros and cons to this approach, indeed but, in my view, that's no enough.
> It is a start but it's not enough. One of the most difficult aspect of
> trying to "manage" the overall picture on press, in my humble opinion,
> is the colorimetry of the inks. I have often seen Magenta come out way
> too blue (b* of -9 or -8) or Cyan not being "green" enough (a* around
> -31 or -32). Yellow is usually fine. Black, it depends. But Magenta
> and Cyan are the worst culprits, in my opinion. I once convinced an
> ink supplier to change its recipe for Cyan ink and, boy, I loved that
> a* = -38 value we were getting on press. All of a sudden, matching
> proofs was a very different game. But it didn't last long because none
> wanted to accept the increased ink costs (?!). Ink suppliers are quick
> to point out that can do "anything" for their clients but when it
> comes down to actually doing it, they're just as quick to point out
> the economic consequences. Yet, an ink set that is closer to any given
> specification will help save time and material on press by helping
> obtain a closer match to color earlier in the run avoiding lengthy make-readies and customer disappointment.
>
> / Roger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden [mailto:
> colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden] On Behalf
> colorsync-users-bounces+Of
> Jan-Peter Homann
> Sent: 3 juillet 2015 06:46
> To: email@hidden
> Subject: Re: dealing with printers
>
> Hello Mike,
> You raise some interesting questions. From my personal point of view,
> a workflow with substrate calculated data is currently fine for a
> inhouse workflow, with proofing and printing in the same company or
> with a very close cooperation between prepress provider and printer.
> It does currently not fit the blind exchange of data and proofs based
> on international standards (ISO) or international specifications
> (GRACoL, PSO etc... )
>
> ESpecially in the uncoated area, we have the case, that current
> standards and specs are not addressing papers with a lot of optical brighteners.
> Instititutions like e.g. FOGRA / ECI are working intensive on this
> issue and I guess also Idealliance.
>
> See e.g. http://www.eci.org/en/projects/fred15 scrool down and have a
> look at FOGRA52 data
>
> Regards
> Jan-Peter
>
>
>
> Am 17.06.2015 um 19:19 schrieb Mike Stewart:
> > Now that we are moving to Substrate Calculated Data sets based on
> > paper white; how on earth do we communicate this to printers. Before
> > OBA's we had GRACoL, Fogra47 - just to name a few. We would colour
> > manage our proofs to GRACoL or Fogra47 (or some print
> > specification), place an Idealliance colour bar on each proof and
> > the customer/printer could measure the colour bar to see if we were
> > in compliance or not to
> the particular specification.
> >
> > Now we start from GRACoL Uncoated 2013, change the Paper White
> > values, create a new Data Set and proof to the new data set. Our
> > colour bar on each proof now becomes useless as it will never match
> > to the original GRACoL Uncoated 2013. How do we communicate this to a printer in Asia.
> > How can they now trust our proofs. Do we give them a small single
> > row Press Type Colour Bar that prints within the job itself and also
> > give the printer the specs. for that colour bar. If so, what are the specs.
> > of that colour bar (C,M,Y,K,R,G,B, grey balance swatches, etc). Data
> > for that file would have to be colorimetric and not solid ink and
> > dot
> gain values I'm guessing.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Mike Stewart
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> Jan-Peter Homann mob: +49 171 54 70 358
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