Re: Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation
Re: Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation
- Subject: Re: Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation
- From: Paul Sherfield <email@hidden>
- Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 12:21:11 +0000
- Thread-topic: i1 Profiler & Full black separation
Its me again, again
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http://www.missinghorsecons.co.uk/wordpress/2012/02/the-power-of-grey-and-b
lack/
Regards
Paul Sherfield
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From:
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Reply-To: "email@hidden"
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Date: Friday, 12 February 2016 11:33
To: "email@hidden" <email@hidden>
Subject: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 13, Issue 36
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>Today's Topics:
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> 1. i1 Profiler & Full black separation (Martin Orpen)
> 2. Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation (Scott Martin)
> 3. Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation (Martin Orpen)
> 4. RE: Spectrolino repair (Roger Breton)
> 5. Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation (Terence Wyse)
> 6. Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation (Martin Orpen)
> 7. Re: Spectrolino repair (Graeme Gill)
> 8. Re: Spectrolino repair (Graeme Gill)
> 9. RE: Spectrolino repair (Roger Breton)
> 10. Re: Spectrolino repair (Graeme Gill)
> 11. RE: Spectrolino repair (Roger Breton)
> 12. RE: Spectrolino repair (Roger Breton)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 20:17:26 +0000
>From: Martin Orpen <email@hidden>
>To: ColorSync <email@hidden>
>Subject: i1 Profiler & Full black separation
>Message-ID: <email@hidden>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>Question:
>
>Is anybody using i1 Profiler’s "Full black separation” and sending the
>results to press?
>
>The separations just look wrong to me :(
>
>--
>Martin Orpen
>Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 14:41:48 -0600
>From: Scott Martin <email@hidden>
>To: ColorSync <email@hidden>
>Subject: Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation
>Message-ID: <email@hidden>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>I haven't used it on press but I use it on solvent printers where it's
>fantastic.
>
>Scott Martin
>(from phone)
>www.on-sight.com
>
>
>> On Feb 11, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Martin Orpen <email@hidden>
>>wrote:
>>
>> Question:
>>
>> Is anybody using i1 Profiler’s "Full black separation” and sending the
>>results to press?
>>
>> The separations just look wrong to me :(
>>
>> --
>> Martin Orpen
>> Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
>> _______________________________________________
>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>
>>com
>>
>> This email sent to email@hidden
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 21:18:01 +0000
>From: Martin Orpen <email@hidden>
>To: ColorSync <email@hidden>
>Subject: Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation
>Message-ID: <email@hidden>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>> On 11 Feb 2016, at 20:41, Scott Martin <email@hidden> wrote:
>>
>> I haven't used it on press but I use it on solvent printers where it's
>>fantastic.
>
>
>The images I’ve been sent are for a world-wide magazine ad campaign.
>
>If anybody is using these separations for that sort of work then I’d like
>to hear about it.
>
>Just cannot believe they would work on web...
>
>--
>Martin Orpen
>Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 17:14:32 -0500
>From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
>To: "'Ray Cheydleur'" <email@hidden>,
> email@hidden
>Subject: RE: Spectrolino repair
>Message-ID: <004401d16519$95939540$c0babfc0$@videotron.ca>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>In other words, for "mere mortal", everyday process and most PANTONE ink
>colors, X-Rite's method would not be better suited than Graeme's or KM FD
>series or -- gasp! -- Techkon latest Spectrodens generation?
>
>/ Roger
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden
>[mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden] On
>Behalf Of Ray Cheydleur
>Sent: 11 février 2016 08:46
>To: email@hidden >> ColorSync
><email@hidden>
>Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair
>
>Graeme is precisely correct, the KM FD series, i1 Pro2 and i1iSis 2 are
>using a modeling process (as does Argyle and i1Profilers OBA module), the
>eXact uses instead an approach using filtered Tungsten with additional
>sources in the UV to provide the spectral power distribution at the
>measurement plane. Either approach is completely valid for OBA’s as they
>are well studied and modeled. The issue comes when you look at other
>potential fluorescing agents. Then the model may, or very likely may
>not, perform as expected and thus the eXact is the better choice for
>these more complex situations.
>
>RayC
>
>Ray Cheydleur
>Printing and Imaging Product Portfolio Manager email@hidden
>
>
>Roger Breton wrote:
>
>please forgive my technical ignorance but is there anything fundamentally
>wrong or flawed in the following approach :
>
>It's a modeling approach, the same in principle as used by ArgyllCMS FWA
>compensation, and the i1pro2 M1/M2. You calibrate for the media's
>fluorescent response by measuring with the instrument light sources, and
>then use a model to predict how it will look under a real D50 spectrum.
>
>Graeme Gill.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 17:20:58 -0500
>From: Terence Wyse <email@hidden>
>To: Martin Orpen <email@hidden>
>Cc: ColorSync <email@hidden>
>Subject: Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation
>Message-ID: <email@hidden>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>I've used Full Black on press before......they'd better have their black
>dot gain under control or it will hurt you. 😉
>
>Terry
>
>Sent from my Terry Wyse's iPhone
>Excuse the brevity and typos
>
>> On Feb 11, 2016, at 4:18 PM, Martin Orpen <email@hidden>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 11 Feb 2016, at 20:41, Scott Martin <email@hidden> wrote:
>>>
>>> I haven't used it on press but I use it on solvent printers where it's
>>>fantastic.
>>
>>
>> The images I’ve been sent are for a world-wide magazine ad campaign.
>>
>> If anybody is using these separations for that sort of work then I’d
>>like to hear about it.
>>
>> Just cannot believe they would work on web...
>>
>> --
>> Martin Orpen
>> Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
>> _______________________________________________
>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>
>>com
>>
>> This email sent to email@hidden
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 23:11:08 +0000
>From: Martin Orpen <email@hidden>
>To: ColorSync <email@hidden>
>Subject: Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation
>Message-ID: <email@hidden>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>> On 11 Feb 2016, at 22:20, Terence Wyse <email@hidden> wrote:
>>
>> I've used Full Black on press before......they'd better have their
>>black dot gain under control or it will hurt you. 😉
>
>
>
>Plenty of magazine printers can't handle the blacks in images with
>conventional, heavy or max GCR.
>
>That i1 Profiler *feature* needs a warning…
>
>Maybe that’s why X-Rite switch of the previews when you click that
>checkbox :)
>
>--
>Martin Orpen
>Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:50:08 +1100
>From: Graeme Gill <email@hidden>
>To: ColorSync <email@hidden>
>Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair
>Message-ID: <email@hidden>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
>Ray Cheydleur wrote:
>> The eXact uses instead an
>> approach using filtered Tungsten with additional sources in the UV to
>>provide the
>> spectral power distribution at the measurement plane.
>
>Thanks - so I'm guessing that the eXact has the ability to switch
>different
>filters into the illuminant path, one being a filter that (with help
>from the UV LED) simulates true D50 spectrum.
>
>Graeme Gill.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:50:26 +1100
>From: Graeme Gill <email@hidden>
>To: ColorSync <email@hidden>
>Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair
>Message-ID: <email@hidden>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
>Roger Breton wrote:
>> In other words, for "mere mortal", everyday process and most PANTONE
>>ink colors,
>> X-Rite's method would not be better suited than Graeme's or KM FD
>>series or -- gasp! --
>> Techkon latest Spectrodens generation?
>
>I think it's a bit about the tolerances you are after. If you want very
>tight
>tolerances with a full range of substrates, then modelling approaches
>won't be
>quite as good. When things other than the substrate (i.e. the inks) are
>also
>fluorescent, then there is no simple alternative to using a real D50
>instrument
>illuminant.
>[The complex alternative is a bi-spectral measurement, which will let you
> predict the appearance under any illuminant.]
>
>Graeme Gill.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 20:26:09 -0500
>From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
>To: email@hidden, "'ColorSync'"
> <email@hidden>
>Subject: RE: Spectrolino repair
>Message-ID: <005d01d16534$5a107db0$0e317910$@videotron.ca>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>Graeme,
>
>Are you referring to ink fluorescing? In addition to fluorescence coming
>from the substrate?
>
>/ Roger
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden
>[mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden] On
>Behalf Of Graeme Gill
>Sent: 11 février 2016 18:50
>To: ColorSync <email@hidden>
>Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair
>
>Roger Breton wrote:
>> In other words, for "mere mortal", everyday process and most PANTONE
>> ink colors, X-Rite's method would not be better suited than Graeme's
>> or KM FD series or -- gasp! -- Techkon latest Spectrodens generation?
>
>I think it's a bit about the tolerances you are after. If you want very
>tight tolerances with a full range of substrates, then modelling
>approaches won't be quite as good. When things other than the substrate
>(i.e. the inks) are also fluorescent, then there is no simple alternative
>to using a real D50 instrument illuminant.
>[The complex alternative is a bi-spectral measurement, which will let you
> predict the appearance under any illuminant.]
>
>Graeme Gill.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 12:42:20 +1100
>From: Graeme Gill <email@hidden>
>To: ColorSync <email@hidden>
>Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair
>Message-ID: <email@hidden>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
>Roger Breton wrote:
>
>> Are you referring to ink fluorescing? In addition to fluorescence
>>coming from the substrate?
>
>Yep. Fluorescent inks are vivid, but don't profile teribly well using
>instruments
>with an 'A' or white LED type illuminant.
>
>Graeme Gill.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 11
>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 20:55:08 -0500
>From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
>To: email@hidden, "'ColorSync'"
> <email@hidden>
>Subject: RE: Spectrolino repair
>Message-ID: <005e01d16538$66b4bd70$341e3850$@videotron.ca>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>Graeme,
>
>I've seen ink fluorescing on groundwood stock. Typically, it is yellow
>ink fluorescing because, I was told, because the pigment involved is
>diarilyde yellow #12 which is known to fluoresce when it comes in contact
>with fountain solution in the press. This is nothing new, to me, Graeme,
>and it never seemed to affect measurements?
>
>On typical #5 grade coated stock, measuring an IT8.7/4 chart with UVcut
>filter ON and UVcut filter OFF turns out an average delta E of less than
>1.00 with a max of 3.00 between the two sets of measurements. Hardly a
>problem in my view.
>
>I agree, when I illuminate printed substrate with this ink, using strong
>360nm UV illumination -- my faithful UVL-356 lamp --, I can clearly see
>patches containing yellow ink fluorescing. No doubt about that.
>
>The same ink causes the same phenomenon on higher quality grades too.
>
>Is that what you had in mind?
>
>/ Roger
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden
>[mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden] On
>Behalf Of Graeme Gill
>Sent: 11 février 2016 20:42
>To: ColorSync <email@hidden>
>Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair
>
>Roger Breton wrote:
>
>> Are you referring to ink fluorescing? In addition to fluorescence
>>coming from the substrate?
>
>Yep. Fluorescent inks are vivid, but don't profile teribly well using
>instruments with an 'A' or white LED type illuminant.
>
>Graeme Gill.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 12
>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 06:34:49 -0500
>From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
>To: email@hidden
>Subject: RE: Spectrolino repair
>Message-ID: <00a001d16589$61bc7280$25355780$@videotron.ca>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>The way I understand the "problem", one light source is needed to cover
>the non-fluorescing part of the spectrum. That could be a white LED or a
>tungsten lamp. But, in my opinion, a second lamp is needed at 365nm to
>excite fluorescence from the substrate. Does ISO-13655 accurately
>describe this or does it only gloss over the detail of the required
>illumination, stating the general terms that it "ought" to be a D50-like
>SPD and leaving the details of the implementation to manufacturers?
>
>I used a Techkon Spectrodens II that has M0, M1, M2 flavors.
>I used the i1pro2.
>I could be using an FD-xx.
>I could be using a Barbieri.
>
>Presumably, none of the manufacturers quite use the same components and
>methods.
>Which is "best"? Newer characterization data all specify M1 but it's
>obvious that "M1" comes in many flavours.
>
>/ Roger
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden
>[mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden] On
>Behalf Of Ray Cheydleur
>Sent: 11 février 2016 08:46
>To: email@hidden >> ColorSync
><email@hidden>
>Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair
>
>Graeme is precisely correct, the KM FD series, i1 Pro2 and i1iSis 2 are
>using a modeling process (as does Argyle and i1Profilers OBA module), the
>eXact uses instead an approach using filtered Tungsten with additional
>sources in the UV to provide the spectral power distribution at the
>measurement plane. Either approach is completely valid for OBA’s as they
>are well studied and modeled. The issue comes when you look at other
>potential fluorescing agents. Then the model may, or very likely may
>not, perform as expected and thus the eXact is the better choice for
>these more complex situations.
>
>RayC
>
>Ray Cheydleur
>Printing and Imaging Product Portfolio Manager email@hidden
>
>
>Roger Breton wrote:
>
>please forgive my technical ignorance but is there anything fundamentally
>wrong or flawed in the following approach :
>
>It's a modeling approach, the same in principle as used by ArgyllCMS FWA
>compensation, and the i1pro2 M1/M2. You calibrate for the media's
>fluorescent response by measuring with the instrument light sources, and
>then use a model to predict how it will look under a real D50 spectrum.
>
>Graeme Gill.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>ca
>
>This email sent to email@hidden
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>
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>
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>End of Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 13, Issue 36
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