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- From: Kim Lorang via colorsync-users <email@hidden>
- Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 19:13:45 +0000
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Subject: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 28
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:08:07 +0000
From: Marcelo Copetti
To: Refik Telhan , email@hidden
Subject: Re[2]: Fogra 51 and 52
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8
Dear Refik
Looks obvious that is an average of all measuments, correct?
Only to have sure.
Do you know what software package they used to it?
Thank you
Best regards
Marcelo Copetti
www.easycolor.com.br
E-mail: email@hidden
Cel: 41 9 9941-1740 - Whatsapp
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------ Mensagem original ------
De: "Refik Telhan via colorsync-users"
Para: email@hidden
Enviado(s): 09/06/2019 23:30:12
Assunto: Re: Fogra 51 and 52
>Dear Roger,
>
>The following quotation is from Mr. Hanno Hoffstadt's mail dated
19.02.2019 which he had sent as part of the thread "[ECI-EN] Issues
related with the switch from FOGRA39/47 to FOGRA51/52":
>
>"The original M1 measurement data for FOGRA51 (6 test prints, 6
printers, 4 papers; all measured by 4 devices - i1pro2, fd7, exact,
spectrodens)..."
>
>Best,
>
>Refik
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>Refik Telhan, EE B.Sc.
>
>Light and Color Management Consultancy
>
>Aydogdu Sokak 12A, Tarabya Mahallesi
>Sariyer, 34457, Istanbul, Turkey
>
>Mobile: + (90) (532) 426 21 87
>--------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>On 09.06.2019 00:32, "colorsync-users on behalf of Roger Breton
via colorsync-users" wrote:
>
> Do we know what instrumentation was used to measure Fogra 51 and
52?
> Just "M1"?
>
>
>
> Best / Roger
>
> _______________________________________________
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 09:45:32 -0400
From: email@hidden
To: 'Refik Telhan' ,
email@hidden
Subject: RE: Fogra 51 and 52
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Dear Rafik,
At some point, I will buy the idea that "some" data had to be brought
in to build the Fogra51 profile, and it only makes sense that the data
was the result of averaging a number of measurements from popular M1
instruments such as the ones you (Hanno) enumerated below :
> "The original M1 measurement data for FOGRA51 (6 test prints, 6
> printers, 4 papers; all measured by 4 devices - i1pro2, fd7, exact,
> spectrodens)..."
This development reminds me of the way the original SWOP TR-001:1995
dataset was arrived at, out of an average of 12 sheets, 4 measured by
X-Rite, 4 measured by Kodak (not 100% sure?) and 4 measured by Gretag
(SPM-100). It was an average of "selected sheets", ones that were
closest in terms of SWOP's target solid ink densities and dot gain on
Champion TextWeb #5 coated paper.
Now, is Fogra51 a "straight" averaging of M1 measurements? It's
possible that, through averaging, some of the "outliers" fall into
place and the resulting data becomes "smoother", mathematically. It's
very possible. In my own practice and those of many users I know,
averaging a number of sheets helps catch the "centroid" of the system
behavior.
But it's possible and likely that the data was also smoothed on top
of being averaged. *And* what I find more likely is that the averaged
and smoothed data was also "edited" synthetically, using advanced
tools, we, mere mortal color users don't have access to, in order to
"align" with existing data for historical or other considerations.
Yet, I gather that the data was extensively tested "visually" between
participating proofing vendors and printers, and that "everyone" was
satisfied with the results. (I got the points you raised on your reply
on the ECI List and will go through them)
I confess this is all speculations on my part as I did not
participate in Fogra51 (I wish...)
I have a link to a PDF which dokuments Fogra51 development but it is
in German... (which makes me regret not having taking more than the
first German language course during my undergraduate studies -- I did
take three courses in Italian, though...)
/ Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Refik Telhan
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2019 10:30 PM
To: email@hidden
Cc: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Fogra 51 and 52
Dear Roger,
The following quotation is from Mr. Hanno Hoffstadt's mail dated
19.02.2019 which he had sent as part of the thread "[ECI-EN] Issues
related with the switch from FOGRA39/47 to FOGRA51/52":
"The original M1 measurement data for FOGRA51 (6 test prints, 6
printers, 4 papers; all measured by 4 devices - i1pro2, fd7, exact,
spectrodens)..."
Best,
Refik
--------------------------------------------------------
Refik Telhan, EE B.Sc.
Light and Color Management Consultancy
Aydogdu Sokak 12A, Tarabya Mahallesi
Sariyer, 34457, Istanbul, Turkey
Mobile: + (90) (532) 426 21 87
--------------------------------------------------------
On 09.06.2019 00:32, "colorsync-users on behalf of Roger Breton
via colorsync-users" wrote:
Do we know what instrumentation was used to measure Fogra 51 and 52?
Just "M1"?
Best / Roger
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 10:55:20 -0400
From: email@hidden
To: 'Martin Orpen'
Cc: "''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'"
Subject: RE: Fogra 51 and 52
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Quick comment, Martin.
On recent press calibrations, I noticed that Black ink is often quite
warm, like b* = +4.00 to +5 and +6. But it has not been my personal
experience that Black ink is "on the blue side"? I'll have to revisit
some of my observations to double-check.
/ Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Orpen
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 10:52 AM
To: email@hidden
Cc: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List
Subject: Re: Fogra 51 and 52
> On 10 Jun 2019, at 14:45, Roger Breton via colorsync-users wrote:
>
> Yet, I gather that the data was extensively tested "visually"
between participating proofing vendors and printers, and that
"everyone" was satisfied with the results. (I got the points you
raised on your reply on the ECI List and will go through them)
I’m not happy with the results.
And I’m not happy with the changes that this has somehow caused to
the older proofing standards like 39 and 47.
It is now impossible to accurately proof anything composed
predominantly of black ink.
Black is now blue-shifted on proof.
CMYK black and white images are a chilly blue black now — even in
Fogra 39 — and look nothing like the printed result.
We should have a competition to see how blue patch A18 from a Fogra
39 media wedge can be before it fails verification.
I reckon you can hit b -4 and still get a pass on a Fogra proof.
--
Martin Orpen
Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:19:50 +0100
From: Martin Orpen
To: email@hidden
Cc: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List"
Subject: Re: Fogra 51 and 52
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> On 10 Jun 2019, at 15:55, email@hidden wrote:
>
> On recent press calibrations, I noticed that Black ink is often
quite warm, like b* = +4.00 to +5 and +6. But it has not been my
personal experience that Black ink is "on the blue side"? I'll have to
revisit some of my observations to double-check.
Roger
That’s what we’d expect.
Why our proofing systems are now generating — and happy to pass —
40% black tints with results like b -3.6 (on a substrate where b = -2)
I have no idea?
Never used to see this in the days before 51 & 52 turned the whole
world blue.
--
Martin Orpen
Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
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End of colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 28
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