Re: Monitor White Point Confusion
Re: Monitor White Point Confusion
- Subject: Re: Monitor White Point Confusion
- From: Claas Bickeböller <email@hidden>
- Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2019 08:43:19 +0100
Dear Péter,
I don’t know the development status of the solutions but I know that e.g.
Remote Director, basICColor Smartt, Wobe Team proofServer and Dalim Dialogue
are used successfully in Prepress and at Press.
So this is neither a complete list nor a suggestion.
Fogra tested some systems intensively.
See:
https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?template=mv/templates/mv_search_front_onemv.html&mv_id=2&onemv=2&menuid=216&template=mv/templates/mv_search_front_onemv.html&mv_id=2&onemv=2&menuid=216&getlang=en&var1=&page=1
<https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?template=mv/templates/mv_search_front_onemv.html&mv_id=2&onemv=2&menuid=216&template=mv/templates/mv_search_front_onemv.html&mv_id=2&onemv=2&menuid=216&getlang=en&var1=&page=1>
Best regards
Claas
> Am 07.03.2019 um 08:33 schrieb Nagy Péter <email@hidden>:
>
> To Graeme: thanks for the explanation. Now I have a better understanding why
> the softproofs in Photoshop rarely have any practical use.
>
> To Claas: Would you mind suggesting us some softproofing applications? The
> only one I know about is iColor Proof, which wasn’t even released officially
> by Quato, just before they ceased operation.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Péter
> Colorcom
>
>> On 2019. Mar 6., at 21:00, email@hidden wrote:
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 5 (Louis Dina)
>> 2. Re: Monitor White Point Confusion (Graeme Gill)
>> 3. Re: Monitor White Point Confusion (Claas Bickeböller)
>> 4. CFP Open - CIC27 21-25 October 2019 | Paris, France
>> (Roberta Morehouse)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2019 14:15:27 -0600
>> From: Louis Dina <email@hidden>
>> To: email@hidden
>> Subject: Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 5
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAOTaQcJUN=GHgBV+DNPcXbSbF7o3N3BbUxUUOXgSKAr=tw38=email@hidden>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> Peter Miles and Peter Nagy,
>>
>> Thanks, you both confirmed what Refik (thank you) shared and what I have
>> just learned. This was always a bit of a muddle to me, but finally it is
>> clear. I've been using 5600-5800K monitor WP for years with great soft
>> proofing success, and now I know why it works so well, and why 6500K
>> doesn't.
>>
>> Mystery solved! Thanks everyone.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2019 04:26:58 +0000
>>> From: "Miles, Peter" <email@hidden>
>>> To: "email@hidden"
>>> <email@hidden>
>>> Subject: Re: Monitor White Point Confusion
>>> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Lou.
>>> I can confirm what Refik is saying from having made on-screen
>>> measurements• using an i1pro and Spectrashop a few years back.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Peter Miles
>>>
>>>
>>> *A few years back I wanted to clarify in my mind the same question Lou
>>> asked.
>>> So I measured the on-screen colour of a soft proof in photoshop when the
>>> 'simulate paper color’ was on. I compared that to measurements I made of
>>> the display white point. I did this on a profiled Eizo at a 3 different
>>> white point settings .
>>>
>>> From the measurements it was clear that the on-screen colour of the
>>> soft-proof (with ‘Simulate Paper Color’ on) was different for each display
>>> white point used.
>>> And from comparing the ab plots in Spectrashop it was also clear that the
>>> on-screen colour of the soft-proof (with ‘Simulate Paper Color' on) was
>>> being shifted ‘relative' to the white point of the display.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2019 08:46:00 +0100
>>> From: Nagy Péter <email@hidden>
>>> To: email@hidden
>>> Subject: Re: Monitor White Point Confusion
>>> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>
>>> Hi Lou,
>>>
>>> What you would like to do is IMHO possible in theory, but you have to take
>>> into account the capabilities of the math model and the devices you use. If
>>> you try to mimic the actual printed piece on your screen (meaning you
>>> switch to soft-proof mode in Photoshop) you’re working in the 8-bit realm
>>> of the current graphics software and device drivers. If you’re far away
>>> from the target (eg. on a screen calibrated to a white point of 6500K) the
>>> color management engine has to perform a large correction to achieve the
>>> desired result. Measurement and profiling errors add up, and the color you
>>> see on screen will not be perfect.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, your original approach (calibrating to 5700-5800) is
>>> almost perfect, as that’s the ‘perceived’ white point of today’s
>>> OBA-stuffed coated papers under 5000K lighting. In this case, the color
>>> management engine performs a relatively small conversion on the white
>>> point, so the errors will be smaller or negligible.
>>>
>>> Until we don’t have 10 or more bit ‘deep’ device drivers and monitors (and
>>> work with 16 bit images in Photoshop), the best you can do is to calibrate
>>> to the closest perceived white. Another consideration might be to employ
>>> displays which are more conservative on the contrast; we don’t need 1:10000
>>> for soft proofing.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Peter Nagy
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> **********************************************
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 12:53:42 +1100
>> From: Graeme Gill <email@hidden>
>> To: ColorSync <email@hidden>
>> Subject: Re: Monitor White Point Confusion
>> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> Nagy Péter wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> What you would like to do is IMHO possible in theory, but you have to take
>>> into account
>>> the capabilities of the math model and the devices you use. If you try to
>>> mimic the
>>> actual printed piece on your screen (meaning you switch to soft-proof mode
>>> in
>>> Photoshop) you’re working in the 8-bit realm of the current graphics
>>> software and
>>> device drivers.
>>
>> It's worse than that though. AFAIK, Photoshop, ICC and the desktop
>> conspire against using display profiles in Absolute Colorimetric intent,
>> AKA soft proofing side by side mode.
>>
>> 1) As I understand it, Photoshop's proofing mode only uses a pseudo-absolute
>> mode. The print profile is set to Absolute colorimetric while the display
>> profile is left in Relative Colorimetric. So this gives you an
>> impression of the white shift due to the paper color, but adapted to
>> the white point of the display. It isn't actually attempting
>> an absolute colorimetric match.
>>
>> 2) ICC V4 disables display profile Absolute Colorimetric intent by
>> mandating the white point tag be set to D50. So a standard CMM
>> won't render the display output with the absolute intent,
>> ruining any attempt at an absolute colorimetric match.
>>
>> 3) Even ignoring 1) and 2), if your desktop and application have
>> their own GUI elements showing, they will be rendered relative
>> to the native display white point, and so will upset your adaptation
>> state, and make the proofing output appear too yellow.
>>
>> So given all these problems, the only practical approach is
>> to calibrate the display so that it has a white point that
>> matches the paper white. That way a Relative Colorimetric
>> rendering will work for a soft proof side by side comparison.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Graeme Gill.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 07:44:22 +0100
>> From: Claas Bickeböller <email@hidden>
>> To: ColorSync <email@hidden>
>> Subject: Re: Monitor White Point Confusion
>> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I can recommend to read the Fogra Softproof Handbook
>>
>> https://www.fogra.org/index.php?menuid=626&reporeid=200&getlang=en
>>
>> A lot of theory with a lot of practical advise.
>>
>>> Am 06.03.2019 um 02:53 schrieb Graeme Gill <email@hidden>:
>>>
>>> Nagy Péter wrote:
>>
>>> On the other hand, your original approach (calibrating to 5700-5800) is
>>> almost perfect, as that’s the ‘perceived’ white point of today’s
>>> OBA-stuffed coated papers under 5000K lighting.
>>
>> The reason for this is that most instruments which are usually used are
>> simply inaccurate in measuring CCT.
>> Using an accurate instrument an adjustment of the monitor WP to the same CCT
>> as your viewing cabinet gives a visual match.
>> But these instruments are out of budget of a normal end user.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So given all these problems, the only practical approach is
>>> to calibrate the display so that it has a white point that
>>> matches the paper white. That way a Relative Colorimetric
>>> rendering will work for a soft proof side by side comparison.
>>
>> Using Photoshop I agree.
>> There are dedicated softproofing applications around where the absolute
>> approach works though.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Claas
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 19:21:32 +0000
>> From: Roberta Morehouse <email@hidden>
>> To: "email@hidden"
>> <email@hidden>
>> Subject: CFP Open - CIC27 21-25 October 2019 | Paris, France
>> Message-ID: <5E4BB1820DF48448AD0F4B07705195925FDD9706@us0-sb01>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
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>> End of colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 6
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