June 2006 - Darwin-dev - lists.apple.com

Re: GNU-Darwin: missing code in Darwin
by Markus Hitter 04 Jun '06

04 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Am 04.06.2006 um 18:03 schrieb Erik Paulson: Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… We don't need to have a discussion here again about what Apple is doing, why they are doing whatever it is that they are doing, and why Apple should or shouldn't release the the latest xnu source and go back to the old way of doing things and all of the wonderful things that were happening because of the source availablity. Now can we go back to arguing about launchd? One might wonder what's the difference between these two discussions. Apple has proved more than once they sometimes simply "forget" their promises and sometimes simply don't care about satisfaction of their (non-paying?) developers. Same for xnu as for launchd. Maybe this is the price for working on/with the about most innovative OS currently available. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: GNU-Darwin: missing code in Darwin
by Shawn Erickson 04 Jun '06

04 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Jun 4, 2006, at 9:03 AM, Erik Paulson wrote: Woot! -Shawn _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… Now can we go back to arguing about launchd? This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: GNU-Darwin: missing code in Darwin
by Erik Paulson 04 Jun '06

04 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com User-agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i On Sun, Jun 04, 2006 at 04:07:38PM +0100, Finlay Dobbie wrote: > On 04/06/06, proclus(a)gnu-darwin.org <proclus(a)gnu-darwin.org> wrote: > >On 3 Jun, Justin C. Walker wrote: > >> Is there some reason you have to send so many copies of this thing? > >> 'Sorry' doesn't cut it when it's deliberate. > > > >I thought that it was imperative and obvious that word should get out > >to the Darwin community about this. Sorry that you don't agree. > > Personally, I'd have thought that anybody in the "Darwin community" > (which is a fairly nonexistant body these days anyway) would have been > aware of the fact that not all of the OS was open-source. If they > weren't, they clearly haven't been paying attention for years. > Just to see if I can head this off at the pass, and maybe squash another long and pointless thread: Things that were previously open-sourced (most notably, the xnu kernel for x86) are not currently available. All Apple has said on the matter is that "Apple has not said anything as to when or if most current xnu code for x86 will be available." Most notably, Apple has not said: 1. Why they have not said anything yet 2. When or even if they are going to say anything about the availablity of the most recent xnu source 3. What they are going to say when and if they say something. We all know these to be the facts. Some are more upset than others about it. Many have speculated on all three points above, no one has anything beyond speculation. If you are upset about it, instead of sending non-sensical email to the list, why don't you organize your own list at say 'apple-should-open-source-xnu.org', tell us about it once, and then carry on a discussion over there. We don't need to have a discussion here again about what Apple is doing, why they are doing whatever it is that they are doing, and why Apple should or shouldn't release the the latest xnu source and go back to the old way of doing things and all of the wonderful things that were happening because of the source availablity. Now can we go back to arguing about launchd? -Erik _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: GNU-Darwin: missing code in Darwin
by Finlay Dobbie 04 Jun '06

04 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JHqScoOHd9x2eYLagrIkFMBGcoLdQivjITan4HIuT48RVLV8FnpS3k9BLDxRXd4tm5Opuw6jj7qIT0KadmHYL0fX+rz4IB0aPBidol086wIISTOELc1oBh2+jmQVC2s/LU6IJyzIR9YLw2Roa1r4JrdpAir4VvlqPppvSNg//n0= On 3 Jun, Justin C. Walker wrote: > Is there some reason you have to send so many copies of this thing? > 'Sorry' doesn't cut it when it's deliberate. I thought that it was imperative and obvious that word should get out to the Darwin community about this. Sorry that you don't agree. Personally, I'd have thought that anybody in the "Darwin community" (which is a fairly nonexistant body these days anyway) would have been aware of the fact that not all of the OS was open-source. If they weren't, they clearly haven't been paying attention for years. -- Finlay _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… On 04/06/06, proclus(a)gnu-darwin.org <proclus(a)gnu-darwin.org> wrote: This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: GNU-Darwin: missing code in Darwin
by plumber Idraulico 04 Jun '06

04 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Justin tutto tranquille ;) I prefer that than the last nurds-review auditing src is very important Darwin is registered as an OP OS Proclus and Others ;) we love to explore and it helps Darwin at this moment , we can't build a really Darwin 8 OP OS and it's a concrete problem for Darwinist ... more than " les plans sur la comète à propos d' Apple ..." the last organize spam and u have said nothing about that ... Sorry, but don't blame Proclus for a concrete mail -- Plum On Jun 3, 2006, at 18:41 , proclus(a)gnu-darwin.org wrote: On 3 Jun, Justin C. Walker wrote: Is there some reason you have to send so many copies of this thing? 'Sorry' doesn't cut it when it's deliberate. I thought that it was imperative and obvious that word should get out to the Darwin community about this. -- Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon at Large Institute for the Absorption of Federal Funds ----------- I'm beginning to like the cut of his jibberish. ----------- _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… it's also a problem about license if u can build Darwin (as an OP OS) ... Apple-Team adjusts Darwin for a specific Hardware -> MacOSX but it's very important to explore others ways , "to explore the different approaches to solving a problem". This is something you should take up with Apple. Don't blast junk mail to all the lists. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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What exactly does DKIOCCDREAD return for kCDSectorAreaSubChannelQ?
by Stephen F. Booth 04 Jun '06

04 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com - 4 control bits - 4 address bits - 72 data bits - 16 bits of CRC My source for this MMC-2, section 4.2.2. Thanks, Stephen _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… I am a bit confused as to the exact format of the data returned by the result of a DKIOCCDREAD ioctl() when reading the Q sub-channel of a CD-DA disc. Everything I have read up to this point states that the subcode data from an audio CD is 96 bits long. With this in mind, I expect to see (for a single CD-DA frame): = 96 bits for the general structure, with the data bits looking like (for the program area): - 8 bits each for TNO, INDEX, MIN, SEC, FRAME, ZERO, AMIN, ASEC, AFRAME Here is my confusion: 96 bits of subcode data = 12 bytes of data. Yet, according to IOCDTypes.h the Q subcode data returned by DKIOCCDREAD is 16 bytes. Can anyone shed some light on this matter? I've probably missed something obvious, but I'm stumped. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Fwd: StartupItems
by seebs＠plethora.net 04 Jun '06

04 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com In message <F85B2026-5AB1-4E96-9834-C38BC20A0C51(a)freebsd.org>, Michael Smith wr ites: >In the common case, it already does; I just don't think you >understand how. Okay. >Part of that comes from looking at it the wrong way. It's not a >question of "when it can be safely launched", but "when it is needed". What about an always-on job? Here's an example that recently kicked me around some: A security cam. while true do sleep 6 lynx --source ... > `date +%H%M%S`.jpg done (It's obviously more complicated, but think of the above as an example.) This can't be done with CalendarInterval, and anyway, I don't want all my startup code running every 6 seconds. So. I want to launch this job, and then just keep it running forever. I have an existing script, which used to be launched from /etc/rc: for i in ... do /path/to/camera_prog $i & done That works. Done. Put it after network startup and you're fine. Put it in /etc/init.d/rcN.d with something like S30camera (where 30 is higher than the number for network) and it Just Works. So. How do I do this with launchd? The obvious idea would be to use RunAtLoad. This doesn't work; launchd hangs forever at a blue screen without starting Finder, because the child processes are still there and have open file descriptors. The best I could do was directly violate the manual's instructions and intentionally emulate daemon(3) in shell so that my script could be loaded without halting launchd. However, I've lost the ability to say "don't run this if there's no network", so I get occasional empty files, which in turn make the code that uses the security camera code annoying. It is perhaps possible that launchd could maintain these programs, so my script which launches them isn't necessary. However, to do this, I would have to have multiple file.plist files, one per camera. They need to have unique ids, and they need to encode in themselves the arguments. The existing launcher uses the configuration files to figure out what to do. So, making them into jobs would require me to make multiple nearly-identical plist files which duplicate the configuration data I've already recorded. That's no good. >> I understand that, in the abstract, >> it might be neat if every program everywhere graciously handled all >> sorts >> of service availability. However, that involves a huge amount of >> duplication >> of effort, and leaves me with dozens of developers whose code could >> potentially screw things up in some way. >... and here you make it really clear that you don't get it at all. Maybe I don't. But I've spent a lot of time talking to people who claim to get it, and I've understood what they said well enough to write about the topic... And I've come to the conclusion that this is more a matter of disagreeing than of not getting. >Let's say that you're launching something that requires a service on >port 1234. >In the launchd world, you connect to port 1234. That's your service >availability check - either you get a connection refusal in which >case your depended service is not installed and you can abort right >now with an error, or you will block until the service is brought up >by launchd, which will have noticed you looking for it. And here's the problem. In some cases, what happens is I get a refusal, because launchd launched my program BEFORE SOMETHING ELSE WAS READY. So, I get told "sorry, no such service", and there's no way for me to find out "... but there will be in 18 seconds" without writing new code. (Actually, the Mac doesn't load launchd.plist files until it's done doing the actual startup work, which is done in rc and StartupItems. But if we were in the launchd world, this is what WOULD happen.) >There is no code for you to add. In fact, you can #ifdef out the >block of code that looks for the PID file the depended service would >otherwise have written, because you don't need it and until you start >the service it ain't going to be there anyway. But I never had any code to check for PID files. I just relied on the startup code to not even TRY to start my program until the program I depended on was up. >> So, it'd be REALLY NICE if launchd provided at least a few basic >> hooks so >> that the easy cases would Just Work. >It already does. Note that your system boots just fine. $ ls /System/Library/Startupitems | wc -l 29 Launchd does not provide fundamentally needed functionality. Apple, given a large pool of programmers, months of warning, and complete control over the contents of the shipped system, cannot make core system services work entirely in the launchd model. >> What I want, here, is to NOT have a situation where every separate >> daemon >> has to actually contain the Mac-specific code to handle its startup >> dependancies. This is Software Engineering 101: If you're writing the >> same code several times, you have probably done something wrong. >Sorry, but that's the argument from the launchd side of things. No, it isn't. Every time I say "just launch me after the network is up", someone says "you need to modify your program to verify service availability". >And here you fall back into your retrograde view of things. Yeah. Next thing you know I'll be insisting that I need oxygen, even though that's totally outmoded. >Launch the program *whenever*. The system will follow the dependency >chain expressed by the program's normal actions as it runs, and bring >up the required services. There's nothing you have to add to your >program, only the ad-hoc synchronisation that you can *remove*. Really? If I run gethostname(3), my program will seamlessly block until the system has gotten its hostname from the DHCP server? If I call fopen(), the system will magically ensure that the disk containing the file I want is mounted, rather than giving me an error? Because if so, that's the exact opposite of everything I've been told. I was once told that the launchd answer to "is my disk mounted" is "query DiskArbitration". >You can; from everything you've said so far, you are inventing >problems that just don't exist. Hmm. So why do 18 of 29 StartupItems in OS X, AS SHIPPED BY APPLE, use "Requires", if it's so outmoded and useless? It seems to me that, at least at the moment, that's a real need. Meeting that need is good. Offering a model that allows people to migrate away from that is great. Demanding that people do it right now because every alternative is gone or "deprecated" is not great. When the new system actually works well enough that you can ship a robust server using only the new system, THEN is the time to start talking about deprecating the old system. Right now, it doesn't work. Maybe it should. It doesn't. Maybe it will tomorrow. It doesn't today. The problem here is there's serious overclaiming going on. Launchd does not solve startup ordering and dependency problems. Launchd provides a hook for launching services on demand, but those hooks still depend on someone having configured the network so that launchd CAN listen on a port. Until the loopback interface is up, even local network services can't be launched on-demand by socket access. If you pitch launchd as a solid replacement for everything *inetd and *cron ever did, I'm totally with you on that. I like launchd better than anything along those lines I've ever seen. I would happily replace both of them with launchd. But it's not a replacement for rc.d, or init.d, or StartupItems. It is not solving those problems. It's no more true that launchd "solves" dependency on other daemons than it's true that inetd "solves" dependency on other daemons. While inetd sucked badly, it still did the same thing launchd does now; launch demons on demand based on access to sockets. It hasn't solved the problems. Declaring that everyone should do things so there's no problem doesn't solve the problem. "People should drive better" is not a good response to "Your car has no seatbelts". -s _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: GNU-Darwin: missing code in Darwin
by Justin C. Walker 04 Jun '06

04 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Jun 3, 2006, at 18:41 , proclus(a)gnu-darwin.org wrote: Is there some reason you have to send so many copies of this thing? 'Sorry' doesn't cut it when it's deliberate. I thought that it was imperative and obvious that word should get out to the Darwin community about this. -- Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon at Large Institute for the Absorption of Federal Funds ----------- I'm beginning to like the cut of his jibberish. ----------- _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… On 3 Jun, Justin C. Walker wrote: This is something you should take up with Apple. Don't blast junk mail to all the lists. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Fwd: StartupItems
by Michael Smith 04 Jun '06

04 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Jun 3, 2006, at 12:03 PM, seebs(a)plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote: Maybe this whole conversation would be easier if you (and some of the others in this conversation) could more precisely describe just what it is you want launchd to do, rather than making this an ongoing retro argument where we stick on our grey beards and debate the usefulness of StartupItems, /etc/rc.d, SYSV runlevels and so on. Okay. ... and here you make it really clear that you don't get it at all. It already does. Note that your system boots just fine. Sorry, but that's the argument from the launchd side of things. And here you fall back into your retrograde view of things. = Mike _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… In message <7DD9D234-403B-4CAD-8BDC-D49B474F2F48(a)apple.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard " writes: What I want launchd to do is "handle the dependencies needed to determine when a daemon can be safely launched". In the common case, it already does; I just don't think you understand how. Part of that comes from looking at it the wrong way. It's not a question of "when it can be safely launched", but "when it is needed". It's safe to "launch" something almost anytime; the question is one of ensuring that dependencies are satisfied when they are required. The act of "launching" a daemon requires little more than the executable and a few shared libraries. I understand that, in the abstract, it might be neat if every program everywhere graciously handled all sorts of service availability. However, that involves a huge amount of duplication of effort, and leaves me with dozens of developers whose code could potentially screw things up in some way. Let's say that you're launching something that requires a service on port 1234. In the launchd world, you connect to port 1234. That's your service availability check - either you get a connection refusal in which case your depended service is not installed and you can abort right now with an error, or you will block until the service is brought up by launchd, which will have noticed you looking for it. There is no code for you to add. In fact, you can #ifdef out the block of code that looks for the PID file the depended service would otherwise have written, because you don't need it and until you start the service it ain't going to be there anyway. So, it'd be REALLY NICE if launchd provided at least a few basic hooks so that the easy cases would Just Work. What I want, here, is to NOT have a situation where every separate daemon has to actually contain the Mac-specific code to handle its startup dependancies. This is Software Engineering 101: If you're writing the same code several times, you have probably done something wrong. That's what I want, at least; I want APPLE to provide the code to handle the fairly basic functionality of "launch this program only when the system can support it", so I don't have to maintain thirty-leven copies of the code which checks for and waits on services. Launch the program *whenever*. The system will follow the dependency chain expressed by the program's normal actions as it runs, and bring up the required services. There's nothing you have to add to your program, only the ad-hoc synchronisation that you can *remove*. It's not perfect, and there are some real reasons to try to improve handling of absentee services... But it'd be awfully nice to be able to get some work done in the mean time. You can; from everything you've said so far, you are inventing problems that just don't exist. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: GNU-Darwin: missing code in Darwin
by proclus＠gnu-darwin.org 04 Jun '06

04 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On 3 Jun, Justin C. Walker wrote: > Is there some reason you have to send so many copies of this thing? > 'Sorry' doesn't cut it when it's deliberate. I thought that it was imperative and obvious that word should get out to the Darwin community about this. Sorry that you don't agree. Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ -- Visit proclus realm! http://proclus.tripod.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com pgp5dwh4nSjJ5.pgp

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