June 2006 - Darwin-dev - lists.apple.com

Re: GNU-Darwin: missing code in Darwin
by Justin C. Walker 03 Jun '06

03 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Jun 3, 2006, at 15:15 , proclus(a)gnu-darwin.org wrote: Sorry if you get more than one copy of this message. http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=576137 http://www.gnu-darwin.org/today.png Regards, Michael L. Love Ph.D Department of Biophysics and Biophysical Chemistry School of Medicine Johns Hopkins University 725 N. Wolfe Street Room 608B WBSB Baltimore MD 21205-2185 Interoffice Mail: 608B WBSB, SoM office: 410-614-2267 lab: 410-614-3179 fax: 410-502-6910 cell: 443-824-3451 http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/justin%40mac.com -- Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-At-Large, Director Institute for the Enhancement of the Director's Income -------- The path of least resistance: it's not just for electricity any more. -------- _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… Is there some reason you have to send so many copies of this thing? 'Sorry' doesn't cut it when it's deliberate. ------ Forwarded message ------ From: proclus(a)gnu-darwin.org Subject: Re: GNU-Darwin: missing code in Darwin Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 16:10:02 -0400 (EDT) To: proclus(a)gnu-darwin.org Cc: gnu-darwin-ports(a)lists.sourceforge.net, gnu-darwin- distribution(a)lists.sourceforge.net I found another problem with the Darwin source code repositories. AppleACPIPlatform is missing, without which it is impossible to build a free and open source operating system that boots. Could you please release this source code under the APSL agreement. Thank you. Everything else is certifiably a free software and open source OS up to Darwin-8.3. Thank you for your excellent progress. BTW, I am making good progress as well with the system. Here are some links, if you are interested. -- Visit proclus realm! http://proclus.tripod.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ This email sent to justin(a)mac.com This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Fwd: Re: GNU-Darwin: missing code in Darwin
by proclus＠gnu-darwin.org 03 Jun '06

03 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com ------ Forwarded message ------ From: proclus(a)gnu-darwin.org Subject: Re: GNU-Darwin: missing code in Darwin Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 16:10:02 -0400 (EDT) To: proclus(a)gnu-darwin.org Cc: gnu-darwin-ports(a)lists.sourceforge.net, gnu-darwin-distribution(a)lists.sourceforge.net Sorry if you get more than one copy of this message. I found another problem with the Darwin source code repositories. AppleACPIPlatform is missing, without which it is impossible to build a free and open source operating system that boots. Could you please release this source code under the APSL agreement. Thank you. Everything else is certifiably a free software and open source OS up to Darwin-8.3. Thank you for your excellent progress. BTW, I am making good progress as well with the system. Here are some links, if you are interested. http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=576137 http://www.gnu-darwin.org/today.png Regards, Michael L. Love Ph.D Department of Biophysics and Biophysical Chemistry School of Medicine Johns Hopkins University 725 N. Wolfe Street Room 608B WBSB Baltimore MD 21205-2185 Interoffice Mail: 608B WBSB, SoM office: 410-614-2267 lab: 410-614-3179 fax: 410-502-6910 cell: 443-824-3451 http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ -- Visit proclus realm! http://proclus.tripod.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com pgpfM8AhxEJos.pgp

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Re: StartupItems
by seebs＠plethora.net 03 Jun '06

03 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com In message <57eba2250606031259l72c0082cx846e4795abde6ea1(a)mail.gmail.com>, "Benj amin Reed" writes: >I think the fundamental thing that's confusing about your argument is >that your software already has to *know* how to *use* these resources, >so why does it seem strange to you to also ask for them at runtime? For a lot of them, the way to ask for them is Mac-only. >It's not like you expect to be able to write a bittorrent client by >making a configuration file that says "this is a bittorrent client" >and it magically does everything for you. There's some point at which >your software's logic determines the resources needed, and you have to >ask for them. Just because some of them were previously assumed >doesn't mean it was correct to do so. Yeah, but it was CONVENIENT. >Now, if you were saying "why isn't there an API where in a one-liner I >can ask for the startup volume to be available?" that would be a good >question. But saying "why can't I just pretend the resources are >there because I used to be able to" is counterproductive, even if it's >been traditionally true on other *NIXen. It may be... But not allowing jobs to wait on dependencies, when we KNOW that many jobs want to be run that way, is also counterproductive. Offering a choice would be good. >If launchd could magically know how the system can support your >software you'd be out of a job, it would be an AI that wrote your >software for you. :) I'm okay with a configuration file. I just want to be able to have launchd do the code for the common cases. -s _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: StartupItems
by seebs＠plethora.net 03 Jun '06

03 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com In message <515DFA89-A274-41AD-AFC1-A25B82EF735E(a)apple.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard " writes: >I think I got that part already, but we need to get more specific. >HOW should it handle the dependencies (in ways not already provided >for)? What ARE those dependencies? That's the kind of detail I'm >asking for. The above sentence qualifies more as a mission statement >than a specific set of goals, and we've already been all over the >mission statement side of things in this thread. Okay. I think the obvious ones are "network started" and "device drivers loaded". Yes, it's always possible there are later changes; however, for a huge variety of real-world apps, "at least one network interface up and at least one host name assigned" is good enough. >> So, it'd be REALLY NICE if launchd provided at least a few basic >> hooks so >> that the easy cases would Just Work. >If you'd enumerate some of these hooks and "easy cases", that would >be helpful. The most obvious dependencies are specific services (we can sort of do this already), network, and host name. >> Cool. Clean it up, give it a man page, and include it in the >> system, and >> we should be all done. >You're certainly jumping rather eagerly on my solution without >knowing what it actually does. That's either a testament to your >enthusiasm or a worrying sign that you don't know what you actually >want. :-) Well, a wrapper that lets people express dependency relations even among their own programs would be a good start. >Apple HAS provided this already. That's what IPC-based launching is >all about - when something is actually needed, use the interlock that >IPC gives you to launch it and allow it to satisfy the request. >You're saying that's not enough, so please provide details as to what >you'd like to see (and when I say "details" I mean "something that >someone could actually start implementing", not "I want a system that >Does The Right Thing, dammit!"). What I want is exactly what launchd is trying to foist off on me; the ability to put requirements OUTSIDE THE CODE so I don't have to maintain dozens of copies of the code. -s _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: StartupItems
by Benjamin Reed 03 Jun '06

03 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=KhyhKVtJc4p+6yAyaLR6BfiVMBY0KuXGUAmSXWuaDxSUdsTzZ14w7s2SfyVz39aVgRmHyJ0Ac3OCPDdK2RxPE7kcn+i/vLj1+urrk8pTMvW/agOMZvqS//OT4nItI48Br0nAC280bnu6asfhhwP4ZVZvCd+XQPhQdqwoAD3FPcA= On 6/3/06, Peter Seebach <seebs(a)plethora.net> wrote: That's what I want, at least; I want APPLE to provide the code to handle the fairly basic functionality of "launch this program only when the system can support it", so I don't have to maintain thirty-leven copies of the code which checks for and waits on services. I think the fundamental thing that's confusing about your argument is that your software already has to *know* how to *use* these resources, so why does it seem strange to you to also ask for them at runtime? It's not like you expect to be able to write a bittorrent client by making a configuration file that says "this is a bittorrent client" and it magically does everything for you. There's some point at which your software's logic determines the resources needed, and you have to ask for them. Just because some of them were previously assumed doesn't mean it was correct to do so. Now, if you were saying "why isn't there an API where in a one-liner I can ask for the startup volume to be available?" that would be a good question. But saying "why can't I just pretend the resources are there because I used to be able to" is counterproductive, even if it's been traditionally true on other *NIXen. If launchd could magically know how the system can support your software you'd be out of a job, it would be an AI that wrote your software for you. :) _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: StartupItems
by Jordan K. Hubbard 03 Jun '06

03 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Jun 3, 2006, at 7:33 AM, Peter Seebach wrote: - Jordan _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… What I want launchd to do is "handle the dependencies needed to determine when a daemon can be safely launched". I think I got that part already, but we need to get more specific. HOW should it handle the dependencies (in ways not already provided for)? What ARE those dependencies? That's the kind of detail I'm asking for. The above sentence qualifies more as a mission statement than a specific set of goals, and we've already been all over the mission statement side of things in this thread. So, it'd be REALLY NICE if launchd provided at least a few basic hooks so that the easy cases would Just Work. If you'd enumerate some of these hooks and "easy cases", that would be helpful. Cool. Clean it up, give it a man page, and include it in the system, and we should be all done. You're certainly jumping rather eagerly on my solution without knowing what it actually does. That's either a testament to your enthusiasm or a worrying sign that you don't know what you actually want. :-) That's what I want, at least; I want APPLE to provide the code to handle the fairly basic functionality of "launch this program only when the system can support it", so I don't have to maintain thirty-leven copies of the code which checks for and waits on services. Apple HAS provided this already. That's what IPC-based launching is all about - when something is actually needed, use the interlock that IPC gives you to launch it and allow it to satisfy the request. You're saying that's not enough, so please provide details as to what you'd like to see (and when I say "details" I mean "something that someone could actually start implementing", not "I want a system that Does The Right Thing, dammit!"). This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: StartupItems
by Michael Bartosh 03 Jun '06

03 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Jun 3, 2006, at 12:25 PM, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: On Jun 2, 2006, at 10:17 PM, Peter Seebach wrote: __ Michael Bartosh http://www.4am-media.com London through 6/7 Tokyo 6/8-14 _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… And since 10.4, getting even fairly trivial daemons started at a time when the system provides the services they need is annoying, and following the instructions given in the man page can wedge a system permanently at a blue screen. I didn't say it was impossible; I said I didn't think it's a "good tool". It's obviously possible to do the bootstrapping that way; I just don't think it's a very good tool for the job. Maybe this whole conversation would be easier if you (and some of the others in this conversation) could more precisely describe just what it is you want launchd to do, rather than making this an ongoing retro argument where we stick on our grey beards and debate the usefulness of StartupItems, /etc/rc.d, SYSV runlevels and so on. a) allow launchd.plist items to key off of configd events, like configd's kicker (a facility I use frequently) can. This would permit developers to use this relatively innovative facility without having to write any Mac OS X specific code. b) have a 'requires' item in launchd.plist, ie 'requires org.mysql.mysqld' Provides could implicit with the job's label. Yes, you can write wrappers, but why? That makes things harder to deploy in Tiger. Feel free to remove b) in 5 years. But tell us now. We need a road map in enterprise deployments. WRT a) I've heard that Apple doesn't want to link launchd against higher level frameworks. But that goal seems contrary to launchd's kitchen sink model (and I don't say that disparagingly). AND it (a) would be super cool, and useful. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: StartupItems
by seebs＠plethora.net 03 Jun '06

03 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com In message <7DD9D234-403B-4CAD-8BDC-D49B474F2F48(a)apple.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard " writes: >Maybe this whole conversation would be easier if you (and some of the >others in this conversation) could more precisely describe just what >it is you want launchd to do, rather than making this an ongoing >retro argument where we stick on our grey beards and debate the >usefulness of StartupItems, /etc/rc.d, SYSV runlevels and so on. Okay. What I want launchd to do is "handle the dependencies needed to determine when a daemon can be safely launched". I understand that, in the abstract, it might be neat if every program everywhere graciously handled all sorts of service availability. However, that involves a huge amount of duplication of effort, and leaves me with dozens of developers whose code could potentially screw things up in some way. So, it'd be REALLY NICE if launchd provided at least a few basic hooks so that the easy cases would Just Work. >Clearly, launchd is the direction we're headed. Just as clearly (I >hope), launchd has the option of creating helpers which keep its >internal design clean yet provide various bits of useful >functionality. One example of this in action is the interaction >between the well-known tcp_wrappers and existing mechanisms like [x] >inetd. Rather than jam a whole access control system into inetd, a >bright guy named Wietse wisely decided "hey, I'll just write an >interposing mechanism that adds all the access control knobs without >having to redesign or change inetd in any way" and, what do you know, >it worked great. Good point. Perhaps something like this could be provided AS PART OF THE CORE SYSTEM. What I want, here, is to NOT have a situation where every separate daemon has to actually contain the Mac-specific code to handle its startup dependancies. This is Software Engineering 101: If you're writing the same code several times, you have probably done something wrong. >Similarly, a lot of useful wrappers could be created for launchd, >including but not limited to wrappers which allow arbitrary ordering >of services through notifications. I was kind of curious as to how >hard it might be to write such a thing with notify(3) and it took all >of 20 minutes to write a fairly functional ordered-launch wrapper for >launchd, so either I'm badly underestimating your needs (hence the >question in the first paragraph) or we've spent far too much time >discussing and not enough time doing actual engineering during this >thread. Cool. Clean it up, give it a man page, and include it in the system, and we should be all done. That's what I want, at least; I want APPLE to provide the code to handle the fairly basic functionality of "launch this program only when the system can support it", so I don't have to maintain thirty-leven copies of the code which checks for and waits on services. It's not perfect, and there are some real reasons to try to improve handling of absentee services... But it'd be awfully nice to be able to get some work done in the mean time. -s _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: StartupItems
by Jordan K. Hubbard 03 Jun '06

03 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: StartupItems
by seebs＠plethora.net 03 Jun '06

03 Jun '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com In message <69692B3E-B183-4B4D-9F96-F1E53DD4A231(a)freebsd.org>, Michael Smith wr ites: >I still don't understand where you think that all this code that has >to be added to applications to "check dependencies" comes from. I am under the impression it's expected to come from application maintainers. >But at any rate, the first assertion you make here is manifestly >nonsense; the system is largely bootstrapped (and will be more >largely bootstrapped as time goes on) by launchd. Yes. And since 10.4, getting even fairly trivial daemons started at a time when the system provides the services they need is annoying, and following the instructions given in the man page can wedge a system permanently at a blue screen. I didn't say it was impossible; I said I didn't think it's a "good tool". It's obviously possible to do the bootstrapping that way; I just don't think it's a very good tool for the job. -s _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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