August 2006 - Darwin-dev - lists.apple.com

Scheduling Threads on Multi-Core Processors
by Daniel Vollmer 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Thanks, Daniel. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… Partly because of the new Mac Pros (with two processors sharing a single cache) I was trying to figure whether the Darwin scheduler takes special provisions to keep threads on the same physicial "die package" (so the common cache can be reused). From looking at the xnu- source, I thought this might've been solved using more than one "processor_set"; but it seems there is only a single set from what I can see. Does anyone have further information on this or can point to a particular area of the xnu-source that's worth investigating? This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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system install date
by David Litwin 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Thread-index: AcbCRvM4v5SCCY7eQKe/FjfaSFqHYw== Thread-topic: system install date _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Xcode 2.3 source gone
by Jordan K. Hubbard 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Xcode 2.3 source gone
by Dave Schroeder 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Aug 17, 2006, at 4:09 PM, fletcher sandbeck wrote: On 2006-08-17 at 15:15 by das(a)doit.wisc.edu (Dave Schroeder): Well, I'll eat my hat on this one since you did indeed fix it promptly. But I'm sure you also understand the concern coming off the heels of the whole xnu thing. - Dave _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com The removal of the link was revealed to be a simple mistake, and xnu was revealed to be a simple delay. After over-reacting to the removal of the xnu source I would hope that people would be *less* prone to over-react to future issues. I guess I just don't have enough emotional energy invested to understand. There was no xnu x86 source for about 8 months. That's not what I would call a "delay". No one from Apple would tell anyone why it wasn't released, or when (or if) it would be. The only comment was to say that Tom Yager's articles were nothing more than "speculation". (And while I disagreed with Tom Yager's articles and sensationalism completely, and was actually one of the people who in various forums was actually defending the xnu situation as possibly only a delay, wait for WWDC, etc., all we really had was "speculation".) For a company that markets itself in various sectors on the benefits of open source, and for organizations that have come to depend on the source for various reasons, when a major piece of it just isn't there for the better part of a year, and there is no communication or guidance from Apple on it whatsoever, and all questions about it go unanswered, yeah, it's kind of a big deal just on principle. I agree that some have more invested in it than others. I'm glad it finally got released, and I suspected it would be, but as Rob Braun said on another list, the fact that it had to be "secret" until Apple was ready to unfurl it again at WWDC is actually part of the problem, because that's kind of antithetical to the philosophy of "open source". Of course there are more issues at play here too, and Apple has its own reasons for wanting to keep things secret sometimes (like, perhaps the features of an open source element that might reveal features of an unannounced machine, perhaps). The bottom line is that I think Apple needs to reconcile these issues, and not necessarily ALWAYS err on the side of secrecy and non- communication, especially in the context of dealing with larger/ enterprise customers. smime.p7s

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Re: Xcode 2.3 source gone
by fletcher sandbeck 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On 2006-08-17 at 15:15 by das(a)doit.wisc.edu (Dave Schroeder): >Well, I'll eat my hat on this one since you did indeed fix it >promptly. But I'm sure you also understand the concern coming off the >heels of the whole xnu thing. The removal of the link was revealed to be a simple mistake, and xnu was revealed to be a simple delay. After over-reacting to the removal of the xnu source I would hope that people would be *less* prone to over-react to future issues. I guess I just don't have enough emotional energy invested to understand. [fletcher] _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Xcode 2.3 source gone
by Dave Schroeder 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Aug 17, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Mark F. Murphy wrote: o No instant gratification from Apple on open source o Mistakes are made - Dave _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com At 3:15 PM -0500 8/17/06, Dave Schroeder wrote: Kevin, you know this is not directed at individuals at Apple. I'm grateful for what you do. But I (and I'm sure you, too) do wish that Apple would devote more resources on the open source front, especially given how it talks it up from a marketing standpoint, if it's really difficult for those of you who work on it to keep up with it. The assertion that Apple doesn't have enough resources seems to be based on a couple of implied assumptions: Well, I don't think I meant to make that assertion myself. Kevin said "we do what we can", and I think it's pretty well known that he's pretty much the only person doing the open source packaging and distribution and support, and that's when he has the time to do it. I also think that it would be nice to make the Darwin stuff a two-way proposition, like OpenDarwin intended, allowing contributions back in from the community; maybe Mac OS Forge will be able to do some of that as time goes on. But all of these things take resources, in terms of time, equipment, and management. You'll get no disagreement from me that managing an entire OS (that now has two main trees no less, for now), plus the open source distribution of all of the applicable components, is daunting. But Apple's a reasonably big company, and can certainly provide commensurate resources to the open source area. I do welcome and applaud Apple's recent moves with regard to the iCal Server, Bonjour, xnu x86 source, and so on, as well as the establishment of Mac OS Forge. Perhaps the idea that OpenDarwin could do what it intended was too optimistic...I, however, am still optimistic that open source can be more of a two-way street with Apple, with the only channel back not only being the black hole that Bug Reporter sometimes is for outsiders. I also hope that since Mac OS Forge is more under Apple's wing than even OD ever was means some of these things can happen. smime.p7s

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Re: Xcode 2.3 source gone
by Mark F. Murphy 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com o No instant gratification from Apple on open source o Mistakes are made mark -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark F. Murphy, Director Software Development <mailto:markm@tyrell.com> Tyrell Software Corp <http://www.tyrell.com> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… At 3:15 PM -0500 8/17/06, Dave Schroeder wrote: Kevin, you know this is not directed at individuals at Apple. I'm grateful for what you do. But I (and I'm sure you, too) do wish that Apple would devote more resources on the open source front, especially given how it talks it up from a marketing standpoint, if it's really difficult for those of you who work on it to keep up with it. The assertion that Apple doesn't have enough resources seems to be based on a couple of implied assumptions: I fail to see the conclusion that Apple doesn't have enough resources on open source. In fact, if I think through my head how much Apple is involved with in the open source arena, I'm surprised and pleased Apple has as much as they do. Managing an open source product, let alone an entire OS, is a daunting task. It's not something that happens at the snap of a finger. What I mostly see in these sorts of declarations (Apple isn't doing enough, Apple is abandoning open source, etc) is an underlying theme of "I didn't get what I want when I want it".... or "Apple made a mistake which I want corrected now, not later". >From there, very few are willing to give the staff a break and are far too ready to decree Apple is failing in X,Y,Z.... or others go so far as to fan the flames of FUD for their own personal gain (not saying you're doing that here Dave). For once, it would be refreshing to see people not jump to conclusions at the first chance they get. Hats off to Dave for asking the question about Xcode 2.3 source... and hats off to Kevin for making a rapid fix to solve the problem. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Xcode 2.3 source gone
by Dave Schroeder 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Aug 17, 2006, at 3:09 PM, Kevin Van Vechten wrote: Thanks, - Dave _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Is there a way to get feedback or guidance on these items? Does Apple understand that some sites may depend on the posted code, and when it just haphazardly disappears or doesn't get posted, and there is no communication about it, that it can be worrying? This list is a good place to raise these issues, but I (and probably others at Apple) don't always have time to read the list everyday. For urgent items, sending an email to opensource(a)apple.com or filing a bug report via <http:// bugreporter.apple.com/> might receive more immediate attention. We do what we can. Well, I'll eat my hat on this one since you did indeed fix it promptly. But I'm sure you also understand the concern coming off the heels of the whole xnu thing. Kevin, you know this is not directed at individuals at Apple. I'm grateful for what you do. But I (and I'm sure you, too) do wish that Apple would devote more resources on the open source front, especially given how it talks it up from a marketing standpoint, if it's really difficult for those of you who work on it to keep up with it. I know there are people within Apple who believe in the benefits of open source, and in Apple's open source programs, and I think many people want to see that continue in a positive way. smime.p7s

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Re: Xcode 2.3 source gone
by Kevin Van Vechten 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Aug 17, 2006, at 12:23 PM, Dave Schroeder wrote: On Aug 17, 2006, at 2:07 PM, Dave Schroeder wrote: Thanks, - Kevin _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… What happened to the Xcode 2.3 source on http:// www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/ ? Since 2.2, 2.1, 1.5, 1.2, 1.1, and previous developer tool releases are still there, I didn't assume it was because the (expected) source release for Xcode 2.4 was imminent... - Dave So is this the kind of new, expanded support for open source and better communication channels we can expect, post-WWDC? - Dave Sorry, forgot to put the ;-) I intended on the end of that, but it is a serious question: again, we have a released open source item (in this case, all of Xcode 2.3) just disappearing, and a question to really the only channel we have about it goes unanswered. The link to the Xcode 2.3 sources was accidentally overwritten when making another update to the index page. The sources didn't really disappear, there just wasn't a top-level link to them -- that's been fixed now, thanks for reporting it and sorry for the inconvenience. Is there a way to get feedback or guidance on these items? Does Apple understand that some sites may depend on the posted code, and when it just haphazardly disappears or doesn't get posted, and there is no communication about it, that it can be worrying? This list is a good place to raise these issues, but I (and probably others at Apple) don't always have time to read the list everyday. For urgent items, sending an email to opensource(a)apple.com or filing a bug report via <http://bugreporter.apple.com/> might receive more immediate attention. We do what we can. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Xcode 2.3 source gone - now back
by Dave Schroeder 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Thanks, Apple! :-) - Dave _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com What happened to the Xcode 2.3 source on http:// www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/ ? Since 2.2, 2.1, 1.5, 1.2, 1.1, and previous developer tool releases are still there, I didn't assume it was because the (expected) source release for Xcode 2.4 was imminent... - Dave The Xcode 2.3 source (or at least the link to it) has been re-added to http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/ - Apple has informed me that it was an unintended issue that occurred when the 10.4.7 source was posted. smime.p7s

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