August 2006 - Darwin-dev - lists.apple.com

Re: Xcode 2.3 source gone
by Andrew Gallatin 18 Aug '06

18 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Mark F. Murphy writes: > At 4:19 PM -0500 8/17/06, Dave Schroeder wrote: > >The bottom line is that I think Apple needs to reconcile these > >issues, and not necessarily ALWAYS err on the side of secrecy and > >non-communication, especially in the context of dealing with > >larger/enterprise customers. > > You're asking for transparency (something common in the open source > community) from a company which doesn't live in a transparent > business environment (i.e., trade secrets, competition, etc). > > I just don't think the two can *always* be reconciled and to expect > it so will certainly lead to unnecessary disappointment. Apple could learn a lot from Sun about how to do a better job reconciling transparency with business needs. Sun has similar constraints to Apple, and yet OpenSolaris is *much* more transparent than Darwin. You can browse the source code to the development version of Solaris (Solaris 11) on line (http://cvs.opensolaris.org/source/) Changes are integrated in the cathedral, but pushed out to the world every few weeks. Additionally, installable binary distributions (and the corresponding buildable source) are published every few weeks (see http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/onnv/) There are even 3 non-Sun distributions of OpenSolaris (Nexenta, SchilliX, and BeleniX). Contrast this to Apple, where you must join the ADC for $500 to get access to the next version of MacOSX, you do not even get the source, and you are banned from talking about it in public. There should be at least some middle ground where the "community" can get access to future versions of Darwin and help influence its direction. Most of the fanfare (and hence the secrecy) surrounding future Apple releases is on the gee-whiz GUI enhancements and eye candy that are Apple's bread and butter. Nobody is asking for that. The cool Darwin stuff in Leopard (Dtrace, true 64-bit support) are basically footnotes that the majority of Apple's customers either don't care about, or don't even understand. So I'm not sure what benefit there is to Apple from keeping them secret. Drew _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: system install date
by Jonas Maebe 18 Aug '06

18 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On 18 aug 2006, at 07:50, Brian Bechtel wrote: If you want the date the original system install occurred, I would assume the date on the BaseSystem.pkg would be okay. Jonas _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… /var/log/CDIS.custom might be more reliable, since future (and past?) systems may not necessarily use the name "BaseSystem.pkg" (while this CDIS.custom has been in use since the public beta as far as I remember). This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: system install date
by Brian Bechtel 18 Aug '06

18 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cPgogU6nqtbdg6QKmZ/CgdZCVAcFKkhj6IhyLWkMZdn+UZQXh5FxRbh77ZhDj2WTMjPTFzOZ8fy8xhQNN4YES4SXRWfae+Z67s4abqchSIhVhiLkml7L523esdfmy7cKSh2z2oHSEyCxUcHAGlFrb+5kHkVKRyEyOJ/Fmipyxpc= Does anyone know how to get the system install date for OSX? This is done on the Windows version of an app I am porting, but I am not sure that information is available on OSX. I'm not sure what information you want, given the brief description. In the directory /Library/Receipts are packages which tell you information about various installed pieces. If you want the date the system was last updated to a new OS version, that would depend upon which system updates were installed. If you want the date the original system install occurred, I would assume the date on the BaseSystem.pkg would be okay. I think you may be asking for information which doesn't have the same importance or sense of meaning on Mac OS X as on Windows. Perhaps you could explain further? How is this information to be used? What value is it? _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… On 8/17/06, David Litwin <david_litwin(a)bigfix.com> wrote: This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Xcode 2.3 source gone
by Mark F. Murphy 18 Aug '06

18 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com mark -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark F. Murphy, Director Software Development <mailto:markm@tyrell.com> Tyrell Software Corp <http://www.tyrell.com> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… At 4:19 PM -0500 8/17/06, Dave Schroeder wrote: The bottom line is that I think Apple needs to reconcile these issues, and not necessarily ALWAYS err on the side of secrecy and non-communication, especially in the context of dealing with larger/enterprise customers. You're asking for transparency (something common in the open source community) from a company which doesn't live in a transparent business environment (i.e., trade secrets, competition, etc). I just don't think the two can *always* be reconciled and to expect it so will certainly lead to unnecessary disappointment. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: PlayListBroadcaster
by Scott Mansfield 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com -Scott _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… Hi, Can anyone please explain what the differences when running PlayListBroadcaster with the followings? 1 PlayListBroadcaster test.bd (no argument) 2 PlayListBroadcaster –a test.bd 3 PlayListBroadcaster –t test.bd 4 PlayListBroadcaster –a –t test.bd And also in the broadcast descriptor file, there is a destination_base_port entry. Can someone also please explain to me when to use this entry? Thanks a lot for any help. Thanks, Hau This is probably the wrong list. Try streaming-server-dev(a)lists.apple.com This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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PlayListBroadcaster
by Quach, Hau 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Thread-index: AcbCVAtEz3+AF0sdT0OkUIps8m1fxQ== Thread-topic: PlayListBroadcaster _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Xcode 2.3 source gone
by Peter Bierman 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com So I think I speak for all of Apple when I say I don't speak for all of Apple. ;-) -pmb _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… At 3:56 PM -0500 8/17/06, Dave Schroeder wrote: Kevin said "we do what we can", and I think it's pretty well known that he's pretty much the only person doing the open source packaging and distribution and support, and that's when he has the time to do it. That's not true. There are many engineers at Apple involved with open source, in many different and less visible ways. But Apple's a reasonably big company, and can certainly provide commensurate resources to the open source area. The problem with more people, and more immediate communication with those people, is inconsistency of message. Everyone can see how important a consistent image is to Apple. Because of that, many of the engineers at Apple involved with open source choose to keep a lower profile and prefer to interact with the community directly on specific issues instead of making broad statements about Apple and open source in general. I think it's that (quite appropriate, IMHO) level of discretion that led to the mystery of xnu. The more directly the community interacts with Apple engineers, the more those same engineers are going to keep quiet about things they don't have firsthand knowledge of. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Xcode 2.3 source gone
by Ian Lister 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Second chance, in this case. Right on. Cheers, Ian _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Mark F. Murphy wrote: What I mostly see in these sorts of declarations (Apple isn't doing enough, Apple is abandoning open source, etc) is an underlying theme of "I didn't get what I want when I want it".... or "Apple made a mistake which I want corrected now, not later". In this case it was more "did Apple make a mistake or was it deliberate for some reason?"... "will it be corrected?". Actions speak louder than words, but sometimes all that's needed is communication. Dave's first email presumably just slipped through the cracks during WWDC, but the eight months of silence on xnu86 is still pretty raw. For once, it would be refreshing to see people not jump to conclusions at the first chance they get. Hats off to Dave for asking the question about Xcode 2.3 source... and hats off to Kevin for making a rapid fix to solve the problem. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Xcode 2.3 source gone
by Godfrey van der Linden 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Godfrey On 18/08/2006, at 06:56 , Dave Schroeder wrote: On Aug 17, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Mark F. Murphy wrote: _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… While I was an Apple engineer, I would have been happy to take patches from anybody who was interested. No I couldn't open the code base, not my decision, but that doesn't stop you guys from providing a patch. The biggest issue I can see is that since Apple keeps the source closed while it is under development there was no way of providing direct code based feedback. However I would have been happy to say that the patch was integrated. I also think that it would be nice to make the Darwin stuff a two- way proposition, like OpenDarwin intended, allowing contributions back in from the community; maybe Mac OS Forge will be able to do some of that as time goes on. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Scheduling Threads on Multi-Core Processors
by Shawn Erickson 17 Aug '06

17 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tnbyoVNy2J95AE+NYSEGQkH5w6jH+rHTkkG5vjvkpMrMxDaeDFUJnBJ5699OGhTrdbymkwYUW4KIGeyH14UO0/melhj6pXR/Basndq/hWcbbg2ASCAcjTvz/L3Bb2ew2h7WHHY+c/ZQHeW1qB+9pMKG5GBLTMqd82nnqn0MT8Ls= Partly because of the new Mac Pros (with two processors sharing a single cache) I was trying to figure whether the Darwin scheduler takes special provisions to keep threads on the same physicial "die package" (so the common cache can be reused). From looking at the xnu- source, I thought this might've been solved using more than one "processor_set"; but it seems there is only a single set from what I can see. Does anyone have further information on this or can point to a particular area of the xnu-source that's worth investigating? xnu currently uses a flat scheduler (doesn't attempt to keep a thread on a die that shares an L2, etc.). -Shawn _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… On 8/17/06, Daniel Vollmer <maven(a)maven.de> wrote: This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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