July 2008 - Pro-apps-dev - lists.apple.com

Re: Understanding FCP and NTSC - add on
by Andreas Kiel 10 Jul '08

10 Jul '08

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com Thanks again Rainer for diving into that. Thanks again Andreas On 10.07.2008, at 15:05, Rainer Standke wrote: Hi Andreas, FYI, I am on 10.5.3, Intel, FCP 6.03 and QuickTime 7.4.5. Rainer On Jul 10, 2008, at 5:36 , Andreas Kiel wrote: Just to proof me a fool. Thanks Andreas _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… I think I got it a bit more circled. After again trashing the prefs on both of my machines and NOT opening all the test files and projects the behaviour came back to normal, after some time when again adding many projects and sequences ("fresh from the given setup") the "odd" behaviour did return. So it seems it has to do with the amount of open project files and sequences and the kind of them. Maybe it's worth a note that none of the sequences did refer to any actual file. It seems that there is a bug somewhere with that in FCP which is hard to reproduce if you are "not in this state", but if, it will happen - still don't know how to get into this state. The good thing is that this is likewise very seldom happening as normal people would not run FCP with this this crazy mixture of projects and the amount of. And I learned how to create a workaround if it happens. So for my part it's solved, but what remains is this feeling in the stomach. Maybe it's related to a bug I filed that when you open a big amount of projects and a real big amount of sequences and close all projects all the sequences stay open. the proect that you sent does indeed contain a sequence that behaves the way you describe: You can't change it from dropframe to DF in the sequence settings, but the exported XML has is be dropframe anyways, and incorrectly so. I then created a new sequence with the same parameters as yours, and that can be set to have NDF or DF timecode, and it seems to export correctly. This leads me to believe that your sequence may be corrupt or something like that. You might want to try creating your sequence from scratch again. I spent some more time on these (in my opinion) odd things about FCP's NTSC and timecode handling. So I was wrong with the 60 NDF non NTSC - it's not always DF, I've to do some more tests to figure out when and why. To make me look not too bad. Here something somebody may check and possibly will give some feedback. I attached a real simple FCP project which is non NTSC, 30 FPS and therefore timecode should be NDF. It includes a sequence containing a slug and some markers. If I export as XML and then re-import all timing is screwed up. The earlier stuff I did was for creating empty sequences so I "only looked in theory" for this NTSC/NDF oddities without any actual footage. So the way I described in the earlier post is not really correct, as it seems that at least for a round trip of an XML some stuff has to be exchanged in the original XML. I really would appreciate if somebody could do the same test and let me know about the result. Maybe it's my setup - hmh <30p project.zip> This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Understanding FCP and NTSC - add on
by Rainer Standke 10 Jul '08

10 Jul '08

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com Hi Andreas, FYI, I am on 10.5.3, Intel, FCP 6.03 and QuickTime 7.4.5. Rainer On Jul 10, 2008, at 5:36 , Andreas Kiel wrote: Just to proof me a fool. Thanks Andreas _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… the proect that you sent does indeed contain a sequence that behaves the way you describe: You can't change it from dropframe to DF in the sequence settings, but the exported XML has is be dropframe anyways, and incorrectly so. I then created a new sequence with the same parameters as yours, and that can be set to have NDF or DF timecode, and it seems to export correctly. This leads me to believe that your sequence may be corrupt or something like that. You might want to try creating your sequence from scratch again. I spent some more time on these (in my opinion) odd things about FCP's NTSC and timecode handling. So I was wrong with the 60 NDF non NTSC - it's not always DF, I've to do some more tests to figure out when and why. To make me look not too bad. Here something somebody may check and possibly will give some feedback. I attached a real simple FCP project which is non NTSC, 30 FPS and therefore timecode should be NDF. It includes a sequence containing a slug and some markers. If I export as XML and then re-import all timing is screwed up. The earlier stuff I did was for creating empty sequences so I "only looked in theory" for this NTSC/NDF oddities without any actual footage. So the way I described in the earlier post is not really correct, as it seems that at least for a round trip of an XML some stuff has to be exchanged in the original XML. I really would appreciate if somebody could do the same test and let me know about the result. Maybe it's my setup - hmh <30p project.zip> This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Understanding FCP and NTSC - add on
by Andreas Kiel 10 Jul '08

10 Jul '08

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com 30p project.zip

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Re: Understanding FCP and NTSC - add on
by Andreas Kiel 10 Jul '08

10 Jul '08

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Understanding FCP and NTSC - add on
by Rainer Standke 10 Jul '08

10 Jul '08

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com Rainer On Jul 9, 2008, at 8:25 , Andreas Kiel wrote: Many thanks Rainer, Thanks Andreas On 09.07.2008, at 16:02, Rainer Standke wrote: Hi Andreas, Hope this helps, Rainer Standke XMiL Workflow Tools http://www.xmil.biz On Jul 9, 2008, at 4:11 , Andreas Kiel wrote: Her some more confusion (for me), Below the start of an XML I got from a customer: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <!DOCTYPE xmeml> <xmeml version="1"> <sequence id="MONTAGEM FINAL MIX E COR USO NDF Copy"> <name>MONTAGEM FINAL MIX E COR USO NDF Copy</name> <duration>26461</duration> <rate> <ntsc>TRUE</ntsc> <timebase>30</timebase> </rate> <timecode> <rate> <ntsc>TRUE</ntsc> <timebase>30</timebase> </rate> <string>00:00:00:00</string> <frame>0</frame> <source>source</source> <displayformat>NDF</displayformat> </timecode> ... Thanks Andreas On 09.07.2008, at 11:46, Andreas Kiel wrote: Hi all, I got a bit confused (again) about NTSC and (again) about XML. If I re-import those XMLs into FCP a) editing timebase=60, NTSC=FALSE, timecode=NDF (01:00:00:00) b) editing timebase=60, NTSC=TRUE, timecode=DF (01:00:00;00) Maybe somebody can help me out here. Thanks Andreas _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/lists%40standke.com Andreas Kiel Spherico Nelkenstr. 25 D-76135 Karlsruhe Tel.: +49 (0)721 183 9753 eFax: +1 650 897 8094 eMail: kiel(a)spherico.com http://spherico.com/filmtools -- workflow tools for FCP P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… Opps, I had not gotten that later part... No real idea why those sequences would behave that way. However, I do think that you can force whatever timecode you like on a sequence in FCP, whether it makes sense or not. HDTV can have NTSC both true and false, as in 24 or 23.976 fps... It helped to make things a bit clearer - anyway: I think I know about that NTSC DF/NDF and the playback thing. And I really do understand NTSC. And it's not about playback. Frames are frames (as with 'roses are roses'). There is no problem. My timecode library works perfect, there is no problem at all. The actual problem/question I got is - how does FCP handle. It doesn't make sense to me that for example a 30 fps animation sequence (or HDTV) which is per se non NTSC in FCP always does have DF timecode in the XML even though it's set to NDF, while the same sequence set to NTSC and DF has the option to set it to DF or NDF which both will be reflected in the XML. NTSC is the sequence speed, in other words if it's true, then the actual frame rate is slightly slower than the timebase. Thus 30 fps becomes 29.97 fps, and 60 fps becomes 59.94 fps. The timebase (i.e. the method of counting frames, or the frame number before which you turn over to the next second) remains 30, or 60 fps, respectively. All of this is distinctly different from DF/NDF, which affects also the method of counting frames, but in a different way than above. In DF, 2 frame values are skipped at the top of the minute in 9 out of 10 minutes, in NDF no values are skipped at all. Note that DF/ NDF does not affect the actual playback speed, while NTSC true or false does do that. This will be imported as 29.97 frame rate with NDF. If I export as XML I do see the same. I also can switch in the sequence settings from DF to NDF. Using a sequence preset for 30/60 NDF I can't switch between DF/ NDF but the tc in the XML is always DF????? Using any 29.97/59.94 DF sequence preset I can switch as with the above example to NDF in FCP and the XML stores the NDF TC flag, string and frame. So from what I tested I got now: if NTSC is "TRUE" then I'm able to see both DF/NDF timecode and frame and the correct DF/NDF entry if NTSC is "FALSE" and TC is NDF I always will get DF timecode and frame - hmmm??? a) If I create a timeline using some codec, some size and set the editing timebase to 60, I get a NDF timecode in FCP (start TC 01:00:00:00) b) If I create a timeline using some codec, some size and set the editing timebase to 59.94, I get a DF timecode in FCP (start TC 01:00:00;00) So far it's easy. If I create XMLs out of those I got following: a) editing timebase=60, NTSC=FALSE, timecode=DF (<string>01:00:00;00</string>) b) editing timebase=60, NTSC=TRUE, timecode=DF (<string>01:00:00;00</string>) So I am a bit confused about these things. How is it handled? 30/60 always seem to be drop frame internally always, so when reading out an XML and encode the timecode you will get DF timecode always. Depending on what you do with the data this might give you a) wrong frame numbers when the timecode is converted to frames (when based on the TC string) b) wrong TC (when based on frame numbers) Questions are: a) can the NTSC flag be ignored and if yes why it is there? b) why is the "rate" there twice ('main item', timecode entry) and how do they relate? (Or what's the idea behind) This email sent to lists(a)standke.com This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Handling interlaced images in FCP with hardware render
by Paul Schneider 09 Jul '08

09 Jul '08

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Handling interlaced images in FCP with hardware render
by David Yamnitsky 09 Jul '08

09 Jul '08

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com Thanks! David _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… Hi all, I'm making an FxPlug plug-in which builds an FBO and draws the output there before drawing onscreen. I specify the FBO's dimensions using the width and height of the output image in the renderOutput: method. Everything works as expected in Motion, but in FCP the frame is rendered twice, once for the lower field and once for the upper field. Because of this the output dimensions don't match the dimensions of the input image, and the drawn output is skewed. My quick-fix was just to multiply the buffer's height by two when performing a fielded render, but is this the proper way to handle this? I was under the impression that fields only apply to bitmaps, not textures. This isn't my area of expertise so any advice would be greatly appreciated. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: use of Motion media in own product?
by Darrin Cardani 09 Jul '08

09 Jul '08

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Jul 7, 2008, at 7:45 AM, Brian Peat wrote: Here's the product in question: http://www.ipresentee.com/iPresentee/iPresentee_-_Keynote_Motion_Themes_2.0… Is this legal? thanks, Darrin -- Darrin Cardani dcardani(a)apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… I know this is the developer list, but I wondered if any Apple people know what the terms are in the Motion package as far as using the included content in something you're going to sell to others in a form that possibly makes it reusable. The last theme looks to be using one of the curtains from Motion, and since this is a Keynote theme, it's fairly easy to just pull out the movie and use it elsewhere. Brian A. Peat Brian, I haven't forgotten about this. I sent it on to my manager, but he was called out of town. I'll see if I can find someone else to answer your question. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Understanding FCP and NTSC - add on
by Andreas Kiel 09 Jul '08

09 Jul '08

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com Many thanks Rainer, Thanks Andreas On 09.07.2008, at 16:02, Rainer Standke wrote: Hi Andreas, Hope this helps, Rainer Standke XMiL Workflow Tools http://www.xmil.biz On Jul 9, 2008, at 4:11 , Andreas Kiel wrote: Her some more confusion (for me), Below the start of an XML I got from a customer: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <!DOCTYPE xmeml> <xmeml version="1"> <sequence id="MONTAGEM FINAL MIX E COR USO NDF Copy"> <name>MONTAGEM FINAL MIX E COR USO NDF Copy</name> <duration>26461</duration> <rate> <ntsc>TRUE</ntsc> <timebase>30</timebase> </rate> <timecode> <rate> <ntsc>TRUE</ntsc> <timebase>30</timebase> </rate> <string>00:00:00:00</string> <frame>0</frame> <source>source</source> <displayformat>NDF</displayformat> </timecode> ... Thanks Andreas On 09.07.2008, at 11:46, Andreas Kiel wrote: Hi all, I got a bit confused (again) about NTSC and (again) about XML. If I re-import those XMLs into FCP a) editing timebase=60, NTSC=FALSE, timecode=NDF (01:00:00:00) b) editing timebase=60, NTSC=TRUE, timecode=DF (01:00:00;00) Maybe somebody can help me out here. Thanks Andreas Andreas Kiel Spherico Nelkenstr. 25 D-76135 Karlsruhe Tel.: +49 (0)721 183 9753 eFax: +1 650 897 8094 eMail: kiel(a)spherico.com http://spherico.com/filmtools -- workflow tools for FCP P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… It helped to make things a bit clearer - anyway: I think I know about that NTSC DF/NDF and the playback thing. And I really do understand NTSC. And it's not about playback. Frames are frames (as with 'roses are roses'). There is no problem. My timecode library works perfect, there is no problem at all. The actual problem/question I got is - how does FCP handle. It doesn't make sense to me that for example a 30 fps animation sequence (or HDTV) which is per se non NTSC in FCP always does have DF timecode in the XML even though it's set to NDF, while the same sequence set to NTSC and DF has the option to set it to DF or NDF which both will be reflected in the XML. NTSC is the sequence speed, in other words if it's true, then the actual frame rate is slightly slower than the timebase. Thus 30 fps becomes 29.97 fps, and 60 fps becomes 59.94 fps. The timebase (i.e. the method of counting frames, or the frame number before which you turn over to the next second) remains 30, or 60 fps, respectively. All of this is distinctly different from DF/NDF, which affects also the method of counting frames, but in a different way than above. In DF, 2 frame values are skipped at the top of the minute in 9 out of 10 minutes, in NDF no values are skipped at all. Note that DF/ NDF does not affect the actual playback speed, while NTSC true or false does do that. This will be imported as 29.97 frame rate with NDF. If I export as XML I do see the same. I also can switch in the sequence settings from DF to NDF. Using a sequence preset for 30/60 NDF I can't switch between DF/ NDF but the tc in the XML is always DF????? Using any 29.97/59.94 DF sequence preset I can switch as with the above example to NDF in FCP and the XML stores the NDF TC flag, string and frame. So from what I tested I got now: if NTSC is "TRUE" then I'm able to see both DF/NDF timecode and frame and the correct DF/NDF entry if NTSC is "FALSE" and TC is NDF I always will get DF timecode and frame - hmmm??? a) If I create a timeline using some codec, some size and set the editing timebase to 60, I get a NDF timecode in FCP (start TC 01:00:00:00) b) If I create a timeline using some codec, some size and set the editing timebase to 59.94, I get a DF timecode in FCP (start TC 01:00:00;00) So far it's easy. If I create XMLs out of those I got following: a) editing timebase=60, NTSC=FALSE, timecode=DF (<string>01:00:00;00</string>) b) editing timebase=60, NTSC=TRUE, timecode=DF (<string>01:00:00;00</string>) So I am a bit confused about these things. How is it handled? 30/60 always seem to be drop frame internally always, so when reading out an XML and encode the timecode you will get DF timecode always. Depending on what you do with the data this might give you a) wrong frame numbers when the timecode is converted to frames (when based on the TC string) b) wrong TC (when based on frame numbers) Questions are: a) can the NTSC flag be ignored and if yes why it is there? b) why is the "rate" there twice ('main item', timecode entry) and how do they relate? (Or what's the idea behind) _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/lists% 40standke.com This email sent to lists(a)standke.com This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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FCP edl import
by Jeff Schindler 09 Jul '08

09 Jul '08

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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