Re: Reusable translated button
Re: Reusable translated button
- Subject: Re: Reusable translated button
- From: Anjo Krank <email@hidden>
- Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 02:12:48 +0200
Hi Jerry,
I'll try to answer this really long post, even though it's full of
words like "trepidation" (eech!) and it's totally late here.
Am 23.08.2006 um 00:59 schrieb Jerry W. Walker:
I'm now (finally) using Project Wonder primarily because a client
wants AJAX features and PR seems to provide them in WO in a better
integrated fashion than I'm likely to find anywhere else. Having
said all of that, I'm still going to complain (criticize), but
before that starts any flames, please read to the end where I will
offer my support.
The Ajax stuff can be had without the rest. You'll need to copy the
relevant code from ERXSession (savePage and the transaction records),
but that's about it.
Also, as you didn't quite hatch yesterday, I doubt that PW is really
for you. I'd guess that your private frameworks from the last 10
years will certainly match what we have.
* lack of easy access to documentation
Which means what? JDs can be easily had inside of Eclipse (all XCode
users, well...)
* trepidation that some unknown way of doing things in PW will
conflict with the way they're being done at the moment in a project
built without PW.
Again: whuzzat?
We try to fix and enable a ton of things in a rather transparent
manner, meaning when you don't do anything, you should be ok.
However, the more advanced your code base is, the less this might
work and the more likely things will break.
Which is why I think that Bill Bumgarner was totally wrong last year:
Wonder *is* exactly for beginners. You may have problems, or you may
not understand 5% or it. But it contains 99% of what you will build
for yourself if left on your own, only that it works.
The stuff we do is in parts very much different from - say - the GVC
support frameworks. In particular the localization, xml and
configuration support needs to do things that inherently clash with
others. This is not exactly open to debate. I for my part spent a ton
of time at logic united to integrate what we have here to what Wonder
provides and it wasn't pretty, but that is simply the way it is. So,
well... tough.
The project in which I'm integrating PW is not yet in production,
so item two is not yet a major issue. It has been a show stopper a
few times in the past.
Item one is the issue the everyone has been most vocal about and
remains the biggest issue with me.
David (Holt), you added David Teran's comments to the Wonder/
Quickstart page and that is very helpful. However, even more
helpful would be a convenient way of getting at the documentation,
particularly the JavaDocs, if one is not using Eclipse.
I said it before in nicer terms, but: I don't give a hoot for people
not using Eclipse. They will go the way of the Dodo in very short
time (IDEA users: I think you have the same means to access JDs as
other more advanced IDEs, if not, I don't really know why you'd use it).
When you use Eclipse, you have a source.jar for all the frameworks
that will provide you with all the JD that is there. If you're not
using Eclipse, I shed a tear for you, but that's about it.
* a prepackaged (maybe zipped) set of the javadocs available for
downloading
The reason for this (and the lack of current JD on the WebSite) is
because the guy that did the JD builds didn't integrate them with the
rest of the dist builds. I only do this every 24 month, so if you
miss this, you are welcome to take a look as you are just as well
qualified as me. Send the command line to Mike.
* a pre-existing script to build them independently of Eclipse
See above.
they will save me that time and effort and make PW even more
available to the newbies (like me) who haven't yet bought into
Eclipse. The easy answer, of course, is for me to just take the
Eclipses plunge, but I already took it (over a year ago) and was
dissatisfied. I won't take it again until I have more time than I
do right now, since it also comes with an expensive learning curve.
Look: I really believe that you are a total WO crack and all. But
XCode is D*E*A*D. I just don't know how to spell this out in more
clear terms, but you'll do yourself a favor if you either come to
terms with WOLips, switch to IDEA or switch to Tapestry. I'll gladly
give you and your people a course in WOLips (inquire for terms, I got
rave reviews!) but there is no way in hell I'll spend one second on
providing support for XCode users. This would be wasted time all around.
The XCode projects we have are only there to get WOBuilder and the WO
apps to find their development resources. You are most likely not
even able to build them.
It also bothers me that even when I go to the wiki pages on Wonder
referenced by Anjo, click on the link to the most basic framework
(ERExtensions) and scan the list, that of the 120 odd classes named
there, only one of them is documented in the wiki. And that
documentation is an overview comprising the following:
"ERXArrayUtilities provides convenience methods and tools for
manipulating NSArrays."
followed by a an uncommented list of NSArray.setOperatorForKey
messages. Although I know what setOperatorForKey does and though
some of those operators look downright exciting, that is
insufficient documentation for the most basic of PW frameworks.
It's a wiki! Mike has taken the effort to add all the class names
there (I'm not sure why, but what the heck). So it's certainly not up
to us to actually write down that stuff you can find in the javadocs
and the code.
So now that I've gotten the rant out of my system, I will try to
offer one to two hours per day for the next several days (years) to
supplement the PW ERExtensions JavaDocs and the ERExtensions wiki
page if anyone on the PW team will offer me support for my doing so.
I'm not sure - strike that - I'm totally sure it's not a good idea to
duplicate docs. And Wonder isn't too shabby in regards to javadoc.
Max had taken the time to document all the core stuff and I fixed up
all the component things. Heck, we even have a doclet that displays
the bindings in javadoc, in a much better way than this crappy
"synopsis" thing that others seem to favor.
I'm totally glad whenever someone comes forth and likes to make
Wonder more accessible for others. So I can give you commit privs,
help you out and all.
I have no real idea what is needed. We have about 1500 classes and
1188 components. Of these, alone 310 components and 669 classes in
the core frameworks.
But as a beginner, you really need to understand nothing except use
ERXApp, ERXEC and ERXSession. These alone will relieve you of
deadlocks, error reporting and fix you up for XHTML.
Then I'd look at the Properties files and the ERX*Utilities, in
particular the array operators. Then, maybe ERXGenericRecord, with
the willXXX and didXXX stuff and then you are pretty much on your
own. I don't have the first idea what you need and I don't really
care. I know that the stuff I committed so far is useful to *me* and
quite a few other folks, but neither I nor anyone else will take the
time and explain it for every use case.
IMO, you shouldn't either, as I think the names of the classes are
for the most far good enough to give everyone the idea what they do
and by now people should *know* that for most of their problems there
is a solution in Wonder and I think we can expect them to simply take
a look.
We expect people to look in google before posting a question, too,
don't we?
Cheers, Anjo
PS: what really would be nice would be some ComponentElementTrous
clone, but given the sheer amount of components and combinations,
that's proably not in the cards.
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