Re: Most requested stuff on Google Moderator
Re: Most requested stuff on Google Moderator
- Subject: Re: Most requested stuff on Google Moderator
- From: Denis Frolov <email@hidden>
- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 19:23:58 +0400
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Pascal Robert <email@hidden> wrote:
>
> Le 2012-03-28 à 11:09, Denis Frolov a écrit :
>
>> I think Pascal is right. If we don't make WO attractive to new
>> developers, community will just slowly shrink and eventually die. And
>> I think it will die anyway even if we all start contributing new cool
>> stuff. Cool tech is not enough to start getting traction. Arguably, we
>> already have good enough tech (otherwise we would have switched
>> already) and so getting traction with what we already have is a
>> highest priority. And key thing here is feedback from potential
>> switchers.
>>
>> Sorry for repeating myself, but here are the steps that could work in
>> my opinion:
>>
>> 1. Build a simple landing page with a few screencasts demoing an
>> initial set of specific features of our choice (guess) unique to WO
>> (component actions? D2W?). Make it as easy as possible to install the
>> tools and create something in a way that is easier/cooler than that of
>> direct competitors. The page/screencasts/installer need not be perfect
>> - it's just it would be harder to get decent conversion rate needed
>> for Step 3 w/o them.
>>
>> 2. Get some target audience of early adopters on this page by posting
>> links on forums, etc. Alternatively, we can get some traffic via
>> AdWords.
>
> Or just talking it on places like java.net. But nobody done it in the past, so I doubt anybody will do it now… After a couple of years, I came to the conclusion that the community doesn't want to get new people on board.
>
>>
>> 3. Gather feedback from early adopters by running a
>> http://www.kissinsights.com/ survey on landing page or asking users
>> for email and contacting them directly with questions. Alternatively,
>> we can try getting feedback on places where we'll post links to
>> landing page. The key question to ask is "Will you continue using WO?
>> If not, why?"
>>
>> 4. Iterate based on feedback. E.g. if users are stopped by complexity
>> of "getting started" step, we need to make it more simple. If the
>> problem is that WO is not open source, we might try masking this fact
>> (WO is just a base, Wonder is OS, etc). If the problem is that there
>> is no book, we need to write one. If there is no show stopper for
>> getting started, we need to understand what stops users from switching
>> on the next steps. If it's poor documentation, we can improve the
>> wiki. If current features are not interesting enough, we can try
>> adding some new ones (integration between WO and iOS/Android, etc) and
>> test with those. But IMO we can't and shouldn't iterate at all without
>> getting feedback from switchers (not us) first. The chances are too
>> high that we'll be solving "wrong" problems.
>
> That was the whole point of the wiki cleanup and wocommunity.org. How can we get new people when even WO people get confused about Ant vs internal Eclipse build? I get people every week who ask me for help because of that, so just imagine how it is for people who are just getting started.
I don't think we need a major cleanup to get initial feedback. There
are good chances that new people are stopped by problems that have
nothing to do with non-beginner issues like "And vs. internal Eclipse
build". Cleanup should be the highest priority only after we
understand that users are happy to try the thing out and are somewhat
excited about it, BUT are eventually stopped by mess in wiki. And if
mess in wiki is not the biggest problem, we should spend our time on
things that are.
>
> Like I said numerous times, according to the stats of wocommunity.org, there is some interest in learning more about WO, but the current situation (tools and documentation) make it so that we won't get much people.
>
>> We are extremely busy here with our own product (Songsterr) but we'll
>> try to contribute as much as we can. Especially, if community decides
>> to take the route suggested above. At the very least we can contribute
>> some graphics and UX designer time to build the landing page (w/o
>> screencasts). And we are open to discuss monetary sponsorship of
>> things that are needed for steps above (including new cool stuff if
>> it's need would be apparent from feedback).
>>
>> Denis
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Pascal Robert <email@hidden> wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 2012-03-28 à 08:44, Q a écrit :
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 28/03/2012, at 9:38 AM, Pascal Robert wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 2012-03-27 à 19:30, Mike Schrag a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "I think we should use the funds to pay people to fix issues that the majority of users are having. The issues will be voted by the community and the most voted issues will become the highest priorities."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is not how Wonder was created and now how I expect that it will continue. If you have a problem, learn how to fix it. Then put it in Wonder.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the past, we had Apple sponsorship and most of the big additions to Wonder between 2007 and 2010 came from Apple… We don't have that sponsorship anymore, and personally I don't think we will survive if we don't pay people for major stuff. I don't think we will survive anyway, but that's another story…
>>>>>> Apple funded a VERY small percentage of the contributions to Wonder. Almost all of the contributions I made came from mDimension donating their time, bandwidth, and hardware for the good of the community. Frankly, if Apple hadn't funded the things they did, I would have done them anyway, because I just enjoyed making things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This approach of paying for fixes seems like you're just going to end up with a collection of bounty hunters instead of a community. On top of that, there's no way you're going to be able to afford to pay the market cost for this work. mDimension easily donated a couple hundred thousand dollars of time if you applied their real hourly rate to the work. So on top of encouraging people to only give if they get paid, they're going to be paid crap, so why would anyone even bother?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I really don't think things are stagnant because of the lack of money. They're stagnant because the remaining people in the community don't care enough to contribute. I don't buy any of the "I don't know how to do X" or "I don't have time to do X." You have to want it. I didn't know how to write nearly any of what was in WOLips before I started working on WOLips, and likewise with Wonder. I learned WebObjects working on Wonder. I'm would wager that everyone who worked on Wonder was in the same category. Contribution is also positive reinforcement. The coolest times in Wonder for me were always when one person contributing got someone else energized to contribute and amazing things were made.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The real question is: Who is currently NOT contributing because they're just waiting for a payday to do so? If you're perfectly happy enjoying the fruits of the community while not giving back to the community, look in the mirror for the reason it's dying. Either give a shit, or don't be sad that it dies.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with mike's statement, and can relate. I have worked on many different parts of WOLips, Wonder and numerous other projects, and more often than not I had no idea where to start, all I knew was what I wanted to achieve. You just have to know what you want to do, and don't give up until you succeed or know that it can't be done. Some of the code I have contributed took me over a year to get right (arguably some of it still isn't), and there are other things I have been working on sporadically (because it's not something I need yet) for close to 4 years now that could be great, or may never be finished, I still don't know which. I won't even mention the number of experiments I have abandoned because they couldn't be made to work the way I had hoped. Nobody could justify paying for that time, particularly to someone who had no idea how to do it in the first place, and with possibly nothing to show for it at the end.
>>>>
>>>> For me it has never been about getting payment, recognition, or privilege. The sole reason I have spent thousands of hours of my own time working on code for the sole purpose of giving it away is one of moral duty and respect for the people who did it before me and still do it today. They have spent innumerable hours they could have used to do paid work, donated resources and sacrificed time with their families and friends, so that we could benefit from their generosity. People like David Terán who gave more of his life to this community than you would think possible. I do it, because they did it before me, it's my payment for using their work.
>>>>
>>>> My advice for the community is to stop getting hung up thinking up ways to better market and grow the community. Instead simply remember what made it what it is, good people, supporting each other and donating their time and effort to make it better than it was yesterday. Step up, do something, make a difference, do it now, no matter how small, in whatever way you can.
>>>
>>> Did the community grow by simply supporting each other (and I won't say that people support each other, and I'm not aware of any community where everyone give and take)? How a shrinking community is going to get better? Especially after that most experts left it or can't contribute? Did we have new leaders who risen up in the last two years? Do we have new sponsors like mDimension or Apple were? How can we find sponsors when most of the community are small (one or two guys) shops?
>>>
>>> Anyway, I'm giving up (no, WOWODC 2012 won't be cancelled).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>>> Webobjects-dev mailing list (email@hidden)
>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>>
>>> This email sent to email@hidden
>
_______________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Webobjects-dev mailing list (email@hidden)
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
This email sent to email@hidden