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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Assertion failure in libcairo (Harald Hanche-Olsen)
2. Re: What happens when you copy? (was: Back to copy/paste)
(Adam D. I. Kramer)
3. Re: Any advice on Fink - X11 - 10.5.3? (B?rre Ludvigsen)
4. Re: What happens when you copy? (was: Back to copy/paste)
(Merle Reinhart)
5. Re: What happens when you copy? (Harald Hanche-Olsen)
6. Whither quartz-wm (Rippit the Ogg Frog)
7. Re: Whither quartz-wm (Harald Hanche-Olsen)
8. Re: Whither quartz-wm (Martin Costabel)
9. Re: Whither quartz-wm (Rippit the Ogg Frog)
10. Re: Whither quartz-wm (Mark J. Reed)
11. Re: Back to copy/paste. (robert delius royar)
12. Re: Back to copy/paste. (dp)
13. Focus changes in X 2.2.0.1 with server 1.4.0(apple2)
(robert delius royar)
14. Re: Back to copy/paste. (Doug McNutt)
15. Oops, nevermind (was Re: Focus changes in X 2.2.0.1 with
server 1.4.0(apple2)) (robert delius royar)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 21:17:29 +0200 (CEST)
From: Harald Hanche-Olsen <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Assertion failure in libcairo
To: email@hidden
Cc: email@hidden
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
+ Jeremy Huddleston <email@hidden>:
Ok, so it's definitely using our cairo. I'll send you an updated
binary off-list to try.
Thanks. It died with the same assertion failure. I suppose the problem
may lie in the emacs code. Though I think that assertion failures
should only be used to indicate problems that must be an internal
programming error, not for wrong usage. But perhaps some emacs code
has poked around in data that should be private to cairo; then we
certainly can't blame cairo for that. I should try the same emacs
source code on FreeBSD.
- Harald
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:48:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Adam D. I. Kramer" <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: What happens when you copy? (was: Back to copy/paste)
To: Harald Hanche-Olsen <email@hidden>
Cc: email@hidden
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Sat, 19 Apr 2008, Harald Hanche-Olsen wrote:
But Adam (and others?) sees different behaviour:
+ "Adam D. I. Kramer" <email@hidden>:
---
- Select something in an xterm, and push command-C.
- De-select it, and select something ELSE.
- The something ELSE pastes within X11
- The something ELSE pastes within other cocoa apps, even though it
was not copied*.
---
As far as I can figure out, that must mean that the event containing
primary selection data has arrived late, or that a second,
spurious such
event arrived to be handled by notify_event in the usual manner.
Why this happens to Adam and not to me is beyond my ken.
The most usual event isn't that something else is selected and then
pastes
elsewhere, it's more that when the item I have selected is
deselected, the
clipboard in other cocoa apps is empty.
You should be able to replicate this pretty straightforwardly. Select
something in X11 (say, a URL from pine which is my most common
frustration),
then push command-C, then deselect the URL and try to paste it into
Safari.
--Adam
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 22:22:58 +0200
From: B?rre Ludvigsen <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Any advice on Fink - X11 - 10.5.3?
To: Jonas Maebe <email@hidden>
Cc: X11 List Mailing <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Thanks to all for good advice. I'm now successfully reinstalling from
source using the bootstrap method and logged in as root with the
latest X11, Xcode 3.0 and Mac OS X 10.5.2 (9C7010).
(I'll take the rest of my complaints to the fink list. :-)
- Børre
On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:12:14PM +0200, Jonas Maebe wrote:
On 18 Apr 2008, at 22:59, Jeremy Huddleston wrote:
On Apr 18, 2008, at 09:51, Børre Ludvigsen wrote:
X-11 is upgraded with the 2.2.0.1 package, the fink base installed
after removing InstallationCheck.
Fink commander runs, but complains "could not determine XFree86
version number" and proceeds to install xfree86 when I try a a
basic
emacs21 install.
It shouldn't be doing that.
It doesn't (unless you trick the fink for 10.4 into installing on
10.5 like
the OP did, and try to use that one).
Jonas _______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:30:19 -0400
From: Merle Reinhart <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: What happens when you copy? (was: Back to copy/paste)
To: email@hidden
Cc: email@hidden, Harald Hanche-Olsen
<email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
On Apr 19, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Adam D. I. Kramer wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2008, Harald Hanche-Olsen wrote:
But Adam (and others?) sees different behaviour:
+ "Adam D. I. Kramer" <email@hidden>:
---
- Select something in an xterm, and push command-C.
- De-select it, and select something ELSE.
- The something ELSE pastes within X11
- The something ELSE pastes within other cocoa apps, even though it
was not copied*.
---
As far as I can figure out, that must mean that the event containing
primary selection data has arrived late, or that a second, spurious
such
event arrived to be handled by notify_event in the usual manner.
Why this happens to Adam and not to me is beyond my ken.
The most usual event isn't that something else is selected and then
pastes
elsewhere, it's more that when the item I have selected is
deselected, the
clipboard in other cocoa apps is empty.
From my testing with your example, this makes sense as the OS X
pasteboard is still tracking the X11 buffer which winds up empty
because nothing is selected in X11, thus, the OS X pasteboard is thus
empty. (ie, this is just a degenerate form of the previous and are
thus the same issue).
I think what is debatable is that the Command-C in X11 doesn't
immediately copy the selected X11 contents to the OS X pasteboard, but
only keeps it synchronized until Command-V in an OS X app is used.
Merle
You should be able to replicate this pretty straightforwardly. Select
something in X11 (say, a URL from pine which is my most common
frustration),
then push command-C, then deselect the URL and try to paste it into
Safari.
--Adam
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 23:02:06 +0200 (CEST)
From: Harald Hanche-Olsen <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: What happens when you copy?
To: email@hidden
Cc: email@hidden
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
+ "Adam D. I. Kramer" <email@hidden>:
You should be able to replicate this pretty
straightforwardly. Select something in X11 (say, a URL from pine
which is my most common frustration), then push command-C, then
deselect the URL and try to paste it into Safari.
Nope, can't reproduce that either. Sorry.
- Harald
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 23:23:02 -0700
From: Rippit the Ogg Frog <email@hidden>
Subject: Whither quartz-wm
To: email@hidden
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi, I just joined the list.
I realize this might be a really dumb question, but how do I get
quartz-wm?
I have the XDarwin version 1.4.0 that came bundled with my MacBook Pro
when I bought it in 2006. It uses twm, which mostly works OK, but
there
doesn't seem to be any way to close windows with it if the X
applications don't provide one themselves. The result is that after a
long period of use I get a bunch of unneeded windows littering my
screen.
There doesn't seem to be a newer XDarwin via Software Update, and the
only Apple X11 I can find on Apple's software update says it's only
for
OS X up to 10.3.9; I suspect it's PowerPC only, and I only have an
Intel
Mac.
Should I download one of the external Open Source X11s for OS X, or is
there an Apple-supplied one that includes quartz-wm?
I used the Unix find command to determine that there's no file named
"quartz-wm" to be found on my Mac. So it's not just that I have to
edit
my init script.
Thanks!
Rippit
--
Rippit the Ogg Frog
email@hidden
http://www.oggfrog.com/
Software isn't the only thing that should be free.
Music should be too, as it once was.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 08:45:18 +0200 (CEST)
From: Harald Hanche-Olsen <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Whither quartz-wm
To: email@hidden
Cc: email@hidden
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
+ Rippit the Ogg Frog <email@hidden>:
I realize this might be a really dumb question, but how do I get
quartz-wm?
I have the XDarwin version 1.4.0 that came bundled with my MacBook
Pro when I bought it in 2006.
So you're running Tiger on it, then? I suppose quartz-wm must be on
the install disk with the rest of X11. The tiger install disk is the
only place which has a working X11 for tiger.
- Harald
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 08:52:20 +0200
From: Martin Costabel <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Whither quartz-wm
To: Rippit the Ogg Frog <email@hidden>
Cc: email@hidden
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Rippit the Ogg Frog wrote:
Hi, I just joined the list.
I realize this might be a really dumb question, but how do I get
quartz-wm?
On Mac OS X 10.4, it came in X11User.pkg on the system DVD. If you
don't
have it, your X11 installation is damaged. It is also contained in
X11Update2006.pkg which you can download from Apple at
<http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/x11update2006113.html>
I have the XDarwin version 1.4.0 that came bundled with my MacBook
Pro
when I bought it in 2006. It uses twm, which mostly works OK, but
there
doesn't seem to be any way to close windows with it if the X
applications don't provide one themselves. The result is that
after a
long period of use I get a bunch of unneeded windows littering my
screen.
I am not quite aure what kind of windows you are talking about, but
there is the "xkill" utility that lets you kill any X11 window.
--
Martin
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 00:07:29 -0700
From: Rippit the Ogg Frog <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Whither quartz-wm
To: email@hidden
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Rippit the Ogg Frog wrote:
I realize this might be a really dumb question, but how do I get
quartz-wm?
Martin Costabel wrote:
On Mac OS X 10.4, it came in X11User.pkg on the system DVD. If you
don't
have it, your X11 installation is damaged. It is also contained in
X11Update2006.pkg which you can download from Apple at
<http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/x11update2006113.html>
I just ran the Optional Installs off the OS X installer DVD and now
I do
have quartz-wm! Thanks!
But I realize now I may never have had the Apple-supplied X11. The
X11
I was using before was /Applications/XDarwin.app. What just got
installed was /Applications/Utitilities/X11.app.
Maybe I had installed XDarwin from Fink or something. I don't clearly
recall.
Thanks for your help!
Rippit
--
Rippit the Ogg Frog
email@hidden
http://www.oggfrog.com/
Software isn't the only thing that should be free.
Music should be too, as it once was.
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 08:29:32 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Whither quartz-wm
To: "Rippit the Ogg Frog" <email@hidden>
Cc: email@hidden
Message-ID:
<email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Note that quartz-wm is *only* available from Apple. It's closed
source, part of OS X Proper, not Darwin.
People are always looking for X11 on Apple's site, but in their wisdom
they don't offer X11 as a download, except an old version that only
works on 10.3 which is only on the website because it didn't come on
the 10.3. disc. For Tiger, you need to install the X11 that comes
with the Tiger DVD; for Leopard, you can get the latest X11 package
from xquartz.macosforge.org (macosforge.org not to be confused with
macforge.net..)
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:03:15 -0400
From: robert delius royar <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Back to copy/paste.
To: "Apple X11 Users' List" <email@hidden>
Message-ID:
<email@hidden>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
Fri, 18 Apr 2008 (08:48 -0700 UTC) Jeremy Huddleston wrote:
On Apr 18, 2008, at 04:22, robert delius royar wrote:
Fri, 18 Apr 2008 (06:39 +0200 UTC) Harald Hanche-Olsen wrote:
Unfortunately, things aren't so rosy. Xterm is particularly
tricky: I
can manage to get xterm to paste the clipboard by a suitable X
resource, but I have not managed to figure out how to copy text
from
an xterm to the clipboard.
When I am in xterm what I highlight
I'm sure you mean 'hilight, then edit->copy' here... just
hilighting should
not cause it to move to the pasteboard.
No, I did mean highlight by itself. I have
'XTerm*VT100*selectToClipboard: true' in my ~/.Xresources (as stated).
Also, I believe that the X resource names use highlight, not hilight.
[snip]
I have noticed that with all versions of X since Leopard, XEmacs
sees
external selections as Clipboard items. They used to paste via
the same
mouse button as they still do in xterm. That has taken some
relearning.
Selections inside XEmacs still paste via the middle-button click.
<snip>
so this sounds like xemacs breaking the X11 laws... we're not
going to put in
effort to make broken X11 apps behave right. We're going to put
in effort to
make working ones behave right ;)
I don't want to give XEmacs a bad reputation. I think its developers
pay close attention to X requirements.
I am sure there are ways to tell XEmacs to do exactly what I want. I
suppose I could ask the developers if they are breaking X11 laws in
their handling of obsolete CUT_BUFFERx vs. PRIMARY_SELECTION vs.
CLIPBOARD. But what I was trying to illustrate was that on another
(linux/xandros) system that also uses X.org's server, the same actions
in the same version of XEmacs (with no changes in the init-code
related
to copy/cut, paste/yank) the results are different from in Apple's
X11.
In the linux/xandros example, selected text in XEmacs pastes into
any X
program with the middle button or C-v. It also works that way between
XTerms and XEmacs. On both systems I have the XTerm selectToClipboard
resource set to 'true'. On Mac X11 highlighted (i.e. selected)
text in
an XTerm or in any other X11 application (e.g. XEmacs or Mozilla
1.7.13)
pastes into any other X11 application with a middle click or the paste
command (happens to be Alt-V from my xmodmap and xresources settings).
--
Dr. Robert Delius Royar Associate Professor of
English
Morehead State University Morehead,
Kentucky
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:22:57 -0700
From: dp <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Back to copy/paste.
To: email@hidden
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
robert delius royar wrote:
Fri, 18 Apr 2008 (08:48 -0700 UTC) Jeremy Huddleston wrote:
On Apr 18, 2008, at 04:22, robert delius royar wrote:
Fri, 18 Apr 2008 (06:39 +0200 UTC) Harald Hanche-Olsen wrote:
Unfortunately, things aren't so rosy. Xterm is particularly
tricky: I
can manage to get xterm to paste the clipboard by a suitable X
resource, but I have not managed to figure out how to copy text
from
an xterm to the clipboard.
When I am in xterm what I highlight
I'm sure you mean 'hilight, then edit->copy' here... just hilighting
should not cause it to move to the pasteboard.
No, I did mean highlight by itself. I have
'XTerm*VT100*selectToClipboard: true' in my ~/.Xresources (as
stated).
To add to the confusion, in xterm rather than drag the mouse to select
text you can click left to start a selection, move the mouse and click
right to end the selection, then click left again and the text is
ready
to paste by clicking center.
dp
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:23:44 -0400
From: robert delius royar <email@hidden>
Subject: Focus changes in X 2.2.0.1 with server 1.4.0(apple2)
To: "Apple X11 Users' List" <email@hidden>
Message-ID:
<email@hidden>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
I just upgraded to version 2.2.0.1 (and later upgraded to server
1.4.0(apple2))
Previously I had been using 2.1.4 with 1.3.0(apple10)
In the earlier version (i.e. 2.1.4) if X11 windows were interleaved
with
other OS X windows (e.g. xterm[1] at the rear, then Safari over that
xterm, followed by another xterm[2] as the front-most window), if I
exited the front-most window (i.e. xterm[2]), the non X11 window (i.e.
Safari) would then be the front-most window. With 2.2.0.1 the back-
most
xterm[1] pops forward over the Safari window when I exit the old
front-most xterm[2].
Is this as it should be? If so, why? Shouldn't the window that last
had the topmost spot (Safari's in this case) be the window which then
has focus once the windo above it exits? That's how other OS X
applications work.
--
Dr. Robert Delius Royar Associate Professor of
English
Morehead State University Morehead,
Kentucky
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:47:14 -0600
From: Doug McNutt <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Back to copy/paste.
To: email@hidden
Message-ID: <p05100300c43138112e40@[192.168.1.14]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This exchange occurred:
I'm sure you mean 'hilight, then edit->copy' here... just
hilighting should not cause it to move to the pasteboard.
No, I did mean highlight by itself. I have
'XTerm*VT100*selectToClipboard: true' in my ~/.Xresources (as
stated).
When I first installed OS 10.1 I had in hand the programming
manuals for the Next operating system and soon became quite
confused by the names "clipboard" and "pasteboard". Lots of time
with Apple's developer tools documentation didn't help much.
The Next books clearly state that the pasteboard is the selected
stuff in an application without regard to whether or not it has
been "copied". The tools pbcopy and pbpaste though have nothing to
do with the pasteboard and work through the system level clipboard.
The impression I got is that the pasteboard is a concept that
exists only within a single process.
Back when I understood Macintosh software there was a scrap manager
which handled the clipboard. Applications of any size maintained
their own internal scrap areas - never called pasteboards - which
often contained not copied data but rather a pointer to its memory
space. The rule was that "copied" data had to be passed to the
scrap manager when a release to another process occurred. It was a
cooperatively shared system back then and the transfer could take
place before a wait_next_event call was made. The scrap manager
expected the data to be presented in a plurality of scrap types
that were identified by four character names similar to the file
types used in FREF resources. Another process then had the option
of working with whatever form it could use on the clipboard. TEXT
and PICT were the early types commonly used.
Now I remain all confused and this discussion just adds to my
state. But I do think that clear definitions of some language, by
Apple, would help.
"desk scrap", "clipboard", "pasteboard", "pb", "local scrap",
"scrap type", . . . .
With process switching on demand it's a real problem to get system
level clipboards updated when a process switch occurs. Even just
TEXT would require an entry to the running process for the purpose.
A white paper - from Apple - explaining the procedure would help
and maybe there is such a thing. I'd read a link if I could find one.
--
Applescript syntax is like English spelling:
Roughly, though not thoroughly, thought through.
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:49:23 -0400
From: robert delius royar <email@hidden>
Subject: Oops, nevermind (was Re: Focus changes in X 2.2.0.1 with
server 1.4.0(apple2))
To: robert delius royar <email@hidden>
Cc: Apple X11 Users' List <email@hidden>
Message-ID:
<email@hidden>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
I just discovered focus-on-new-windows. Now that I have disabled it,
the interleaved non-X11 programs do not move behind the lower X11
window.
Sun, 20 Apr 2008 (14:23 -0400 UTC) robert delius royar wrote:
I just upgraded to version 2.2.0.1 (and later upgraded to server
1.4.0(apple2))
Previously I had been using 2.1.4 with 1.3.0(apple10)
In the earlier version (i.e. 2.1.4) if X11 windows were
interleaved with
other OS X windows (e.g. xterm[1] at the rear, then Safari over
that xterm,
followed by another xterm[2] as the front-most window), if I
exited the
front-most window (i.e. xterm[2]), the non X11 window (i.e.
Safari) would
then be the front-most window. With 2.2.0.1 the back-most xterm
[1] pops
forward over the Safari window when I exit the old front-most xterm
[2].
Is this as it should be? If so, why? Shouldn't the window that
last had the
topmost spot (Safari's in this case) be the window which then has
focus once
the windo above it exits? That's how other OS X applications work.
--
Dr. Robert Delius Royar Associate Professor of
English
Morehead State University Morehead,
Kentucky
------------------------------
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