Re: a modest proposal
Re: a modest proposal
- Subject: Re: a modest proposal
- From: joshua portway <email@hidden>
- Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:43:21 +0100
I think providing an example of how to write plugins like the EJB and
servlet wizards would be open enough.
nope. I've got a bug in xcode 1.2 which stalled our development for
several days and made us have to move back to xcode 1.1. I would much
rather have had a look at the source and fixed it. Also, I'm not just
talking about Java development, I'm talking about other languages too.
And I'd also like to add Subversion support for instance (which, btw,
is already there in netbeans along with support for pretty much every
other major version control system) - and how about integration with
our bug database, that would be nice (also in netbeans) ? The point is
that open projects like netbeans and eclipse have all these great
things because they're open and lots of people can contribute. And
while I'm ranting about openness (I'm in that kind of mood), what about
having an open bug database ? So we don't have to spend days tracking
down something that's already a known bug.
Perhaps code sense that sort of thing would be a nice feature one day,
but then that stuff promotes random try and test developing that I've
sat and watched folks using IDE tools do.
I guess that you're not the target audience then :) Since you seem to
be philosophically opposed to using anything much beyond a vanilla text
editor, then you can keep using that, but in that case I presume you
wouldn't mind the XCode team concentrating their efforts in a more
productive direction. Presumably XCode already has too many sissy
features like it's minimally functional debugger, which you'd much
rather were removed lest they tempt you from the path of righteousness.
The rest of us find ourselves rather more productive when we're spoilt
with things like code completion, refactoring, local version control,
JUnit integration, working debuggers, context sensitive documentation,
bug and code assistance lists, code browsers etc. etc. etc.
So why don't we just go and use Netbeans or Eclipse ? Well, we do, I
guess. Except that the OSX experience with both of those tools is a bit
rough, and I would love if Apple could devote some resources to helping
out there. Also, our project has native code as well as Java code, and
for the native code we're forced to use XCode - and I can tell you that
we all dread having to go back to it after having got used to using
Netbeans or Eclipse for a while (2 of us use Netbeans, one uses
Eclipse). And again, I know that the XCode team have worked really
hard, and it IS getting better - it's just that the other tools are
getting better too, and at a faster rate than XCode, and XCode is
relentlessly slipping behind. My point is that by leveraging all that
work Apple could focus on the important, cool and OSX specific stuff
and stop having to reinvent the wheel. At the current rate I estimate
XCode might be roughly at the same point that the open IDEs are now in
about 2 or 3 years time - but by then of course they will most likely
be even better, and wouldn't those 2 or 3 years of talented engineers
time be better spent doing something new and unique instead of just
trying hopelessly to catch up ?
josh
On 13 Jun 2004, at 13:58, Mark Lowe wrote:
I think providing an example of how to write plugins like the EJB and
servlet wizards would be open enough. And let developers submit
their/our plugins somewhere. Thus freeing apple of the burden of
extending the J2EE stuff while focusing on basics like decent cvs
support.
This wouldn't compete with the likes of eclipse or netbeans but I
think there are a lot of folk who'd like to have a no nonsense ide
that just provides a central place to manage projects, with not too
much abstraction from the terminal (with ant et al) + text editor
setup. Eclipse users could pick an existing xcode project up by
importing the build files (i seem to recall its supposed to do that,
Jdeveloper did).
But I think as long as all IDE's support ant, that should be to common
thread between all projects, and leave the tools up to the developer.
Perhaps code sense that sort of thing would be a nice feature one day,
but then that stuff promotes random try and test developing that I've
sat and watched folks using IDE tools do. Javadocs are good and i
don't mind reading them.
If anyone has any pointers on how to go about making wizard plugins
and such like, please let me know.
Mark
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