Re: WO(Re)petition
Re: WO(Re)petition
- Subject: Re: WO(Re)petition
- From: mike deavila <email@hidden>
- Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 04:22:15 -0700
I have used WO since 1996 (when it was NeXT). In the early days,
Apple had one major release after another. Apple has not had a major
release or upgrade with new features in years. If you look at what
others are doing, .NET and flex and the others... WO looks less
attractive everyday. Sure EOF was nice and the way it all worked
together was great but now other technologies have a lot of nice
features WO does not have and the way WO development is going, it
will most likely never have. In fact, they are supporting less tools
and requiring developers to seek tools, UI widgets, features, and
support elsewhere. I'm not saying the answer is open source, however
Apple development is not the answer either. WO is Apple's and Apple
could be the answer but Apple is clearing choosing not.
mike
On Oct 3, 2007, at 3:42 AM, Miguel Arroz wrote:
Hi!
I know people who develop on Windows today, no problems. I know
people who develop on Linux, they way the only problem is that
EOGenerator does not run, but a) EOGenerator is not even made by
Apple, and 2) There is a Java replacement on Wonder, I think,
although I'm not sure.
Also, you don't need an xServe to deploy. People are using Linux,
FreeBSD, Solaris, with no problems at all. It's Java. That's the
point!
This being said, I think that if your client wants to abandon WO,
the problem is not in WO, but in your client. Apple may not
officially support non-Mac platforms, but we know it works, and at
least Apple offers official support for their platform. Look at the
open source stuff. Do they offer support for anything at all? No.
If you can make it work, cool, if not, who cares.
WebKit is a different story, but even WebKit only became anything
serious after Apple "closed-sourced" it for a long time, and worked
alone, using their own guidelines, orientation, talent and strategy
to build a decent product. They only open sourced it after being
"good enough", and because legally they really had to.
When you say "I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO
side, if Apple opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly
technology, just for eating.", what are the arguments they present?
It's not enough to say "oh, i don't use WO because it's not open-
source.". They must say WHY. Open-source originally was a good
ideia for some kind of projects, but it has a lot of drawbacks,
specially when you look at the quality of the products, because a
lof of people work on it and because many times there's not a
roadmap for the product. Unfortunately it has become a comercial
buzzword (how ironic, isn't it?), and many people say they will
only use open source stuff because it's an hype, they don't really
know why. I don't call that "thinking different", I don't even call
that "thinking".
That's why I asked for argumentation to your petition. WHY do you
want it to be open-sourced. What will we win and loose with it. I'm
waiting!
Yours
Miguel Arroz
On 2007/10/03, at 09:17, Stephane Guyot wrote:
Ian, David, Miguel ...
I can't agree with you.
My last client, is looking for WO replacement because of lack of
windows and linux support.
Ten years of WO development without roadmap, multi to mono
platform support, ....
Actually I'm just trying to convince my new client to use WO, we
develops on Mac and windows, we are using FLEX, ( opensource,
multiplatform ...),
but I can't them : now we just needs to drop server and buy
Xserve :-)
I simply hate, J2EE , Spring, Struts, Hibernate .... I want to
continue with WO, but not at home in my job.
Stephane
PS : WebKit is open source and use by many companies, Nokia, Adobe
for AIR, it's not a good idea ?
I know many developpers that wil be back on the WO side, if Apple
opensource WO, but they are currently using uggly technology, just
for eating.
Le 3 oct. 07 à 02:51, Ian Joyner a écrit :
I agree – calling for open source is not thinking different, it's
thinking the same. This industry is too full of popular solutions
that don't really address the real problem. I think that's what
Steve means when he says think different, address the problem and
the need. I don't think open source will solve WO's problems,
that doesn't mean that I don't think it would be nice to be able
to browse through the code, but evaluate what the problems are
and then solve those problems. I think Pierre's group at Apple
are doing that.
Ian
On 03/10/2007, at 7:13 AM, David LeBer wrote:
On 2-Oct-07, at 5:04 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote:
Hi!
Think different: please present any valid arguments to
sustain your request.
Think different: please request what you want through the
proper channels. People are trying to create a WO Community,
being the communication between WO users and Apple a goal. If
you want to help and to make your voice be heard, you should
help building the WO Community, instead of flooding the mail-list.
Think different: please THINK if open sourcing WO is what you
really want. Because what I want is Apple to actively develop
it, doing a good job that results in innovative features and
QUALITY work, and yes, documented. How many Web frameworks do
you know that are innovative, with a solid, very solid code
base (with a few bugs, naturally), and well documented... AND
OPEN SOURCE? Because I don't know any one.
Think different: open source WO clones/copies/alternatives
(use whatever pleases you) exist. Do you use them? No. Why?
Because WO is still the best. Did being open source helped? I
don't think so.
Think different: if you REALLY need to look at the WO source,
you know you can.
Think different: again, stop flooding my mailbox. If you
really want to make your point, put together some decent
arguments, talk with the people who are working to build the WO
Community, and use them to get in touch with Apple.
I don't mean to be rude, but this is getting a little
childish...
I was just about to click send on a message that said the same
thing...
OK, not the same thing, Miguel said it better :-)
;david
--
David LeBer
Codeferous Software
'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing'
site: http://codeferous.com
blog: http://davidleber.net
profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber
--
Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group:
http://tacow.org
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Miguel Arroz
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http://www.ipragma.com
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