Re: Uses for D2JC (was: Gianduia and WO)
Re: Uses for D2JC (was: Gianduia and WO)
- Subject: Re: Uses for D2JC (was: Gianduia and WO)
- From: David Avendasora <email@hidden>
- Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 11:48:07 -0500
On Nov 6, 2009, at 9:54 AM, Mike Schrag wrote:
couple mins of Interface Builder mockup (mac-up?):
<PastedGraphic-2.png><PastedGraphic-3.png>
Nice looking and it shows how powerful Interface Builder can be in
making UIs, but mine isn't just a mock-up it's a fully functional
application - warts and all. It really talks to the server, sync ECs,
validates, etc. etc. Again, I dropped an EOModel into my template
project and launched it. Then used the EOAssistant to configure which
attributes showed, what type of widget they used (PopUp, text field,
explorer, etc) and where they appeared on the screen. That's it. No
code. There's not a single Java Class besides Application,
DirectAction, Session and two components: Main and JavaClient, none of
which are modified beyond the stock template.
So D2JC is certainly _passable_, but it's far from being a proper
mac app (those default old style boxes are the dead giveaway for
java apps, though there's a Swing client property to switch box
styles, IIRC). Now, certainly, if you spent enough time, you could
tweak things and make it a lot closer, but it's always going to be
off.
Yes, and so will any web app, only more so. Now, your point about the
uncanny valley is very true. D2JC comes almost too close to the look
of a native app. If it were further off like a web app people's
expectations would be lowered and no one would complain. But being
uncanny hardly seems a valid reason to throw away something that saves
literally _hundreds_ of hours of development time, especially for
internal, CRUD-type admin applications.
But I don't think that using D2JC to create shipping CRUD-type
applications is really its most appropriate or useful application. To
me, it's all about lowering project risk by getting stake-holders
involved as soon as possible in the development process and as a
prototyping and model-validating tool.
D2JC is an incredibly powerful tool when used as a means to an end.
WIth D2JC you can have a _fully functional_ application with just an
EOModel. This allows you, as a developer, to get a true feel for how
well your model represents the business context without having to
write any code. You can immediately start creating records in the
database, setting relationships, deleting objects, orphaning them,
etc. through EOF which will verify that the relationships are properly
setup including that your deletion rules and ownership settings work
as you expect. Again, you can do all this without writing any code!
You don't have to ever show it to an end-user if you don't want to.
Change your model? No problem. Rebuild (copy the revised EOModel to
the build directory) and relaunch your app and your changes are
immediately reflected in the UI. Since you haven't written any code,
you don't have to refactor! What's better than Eclipse's refactoring
tools? Not needing to refactor at all. D2JC greatly speeds the process
of modeling and validating that the model reflects reality.
On top of all this, since you have a fully functional application,
with all CRUD functions, revert functionality, validation, etc, it
_can_ transition into the initial data-entry, data-cleanup application
to populate/scrub the database and even be used by non-developers
(business users). How many times have you created spreadsheets for
users to do data entry into so you can then import them into the DB?
With D2JC what you give them can be a real application that writes
directly to the DB.
Keep in mind that you can do all of this - requirements to working
prototype - in ONE DAY with no code. It is easy to start with some
basic requirements, create a model, then an app, and take it to the
stake-holders to show how various pieces fit together and get even
better feedback on workflows because you are giving them something
they can see and understand not an abstract diagram. You can then make
revisions and return with a revised, working application _minutes_
later. Yes, I said minutes!
Once you've validated that the Model accurately reflects reality by
having actually putting it to use, you can now start the labor-
intensive process of creating the finely tuned UI that looks and works
exactly how you want it to. Because you have already done a
substantial amount of model and business context validation there will
be far less risk of having to tear it all apart due to having missed
something fundamental in the model.
I'd like to see any other technology do that, WO-based or not.
And we're just talking chrome, not behavior of the app, which is
often even more off.
D2JC certainly has some UI clumsiness to it, especially when working
with many-to-many relationships and dealing with Inheritance.
Of course you have to do all these tweaks for each platform, too --
though you're a fair bit closer than my CocoaClient app is running
on Windows :)
I think what it comes down to is that I would not suggest using D2JC
in a situation where you have to have complete control over the UI or
have even reasonably complicated work-flows. On top of that, I don't
think it would be worth the effort to tweak the UI for one platform,
let alone multiple ones. The fact that it runs "passibly" on all Java
platforms without writing any UI code at all, to me is simply amazing
and incredibly powerful.
Whew, that's more than I intended to write. :-)
Dave
ms
On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:50 AM, David Avendasora wrote:
On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:17 AM, Mike Schrag wrote:
So if we're stirring the pot here ... For me, it's not being cool
in the browser, it's about Java apps looking terrible. You can
immediately tell when you're using a Java app ... Things are just
never quite right, but they try to sell themselves as being
native. It's an uncanny valley situation. Eclipse/SWT are using
native controls for lots of things and they get it wrong, too.
Swing just doesn't have a chance. Go try IDEA -- it looks
TERRIBLE. Look at their preference panels. I tweeted when IDEA
went free that I can see how to make Eclipse right, but I'd never
be able to make IDEA right.
I understand the uncanny valley. In most cases you are absolutely
right. Here's a screen grab from my current D2JC project, I think
it looks pretty good, although it doesn't look like a modern OS X
app (iTunes, etc):
<PastedGraphic-3.png>
For browser apps, it's obvious they're not native apps, and the
bar is set low in the browser at this point, so you can make a
slick looking app, and it doesn't have to be perfectly native, and
people are still OK with it. I would be far more interested in
CocoaClient where you actually have a chance of pulling off a nice
end-user deliverable.
I agree. For me a WO Cocoa Client is the Holy Grail of Client-
Server. I want it. Badly.
That said, I recognize that there are plenty of apps where
"looking slick" doesn't really matter -- that you just need to get
some business app out there. But what does Java bring to the table
that you're not getting in the browser?
With plain WebObjects JavaClient, you get
1) Real Java on the client. No messing around learning JavaScript
(or waiting for the "next great JS framework") to implement UI logic.
2) EOF on the Client with
- automatic syncing of Client and Server EditingContexts (works
very similar to Child ECs)
- batching
- faulting
- validation
Why not just use D2W? Drag and drop is about the only thing, and
that will be in the good browsers pretty soon.
For me, it's not about the features you get in the client, although
there's some cool stuff that way too. It's the dead-simple
development side that makes it so awesome to me. With WebObjects
D2JC you don't have to write _any_ code at all. No HTML. No CSS. No
JavaScript. Not even rules! You hear that D2W guys? The D2JC
EOAssistant works great and it will write most of the rules you
need! Here's a screen capture of it (it's also a Java Client app
that communicates with WOLips to update the user.d2wmodel file):
<PastedGraphic-6.tiff>
Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack this thread with Java Client, but
hey Anjo brought it up! :-P
Dave
I do, however, think D2JC is a _neat_ technology, in that it's
amazingly clever what it's doing under the covers, I just am not
sold on the end result.
ms
On Nov 6, 2009, at 7:41 AM, David Avendasora wrote:
Hey! Did I hear "JavaClient"?! :-D
Yeah, it will be cool if someday we get the tools to do something
client-server like JavaClient.
Oh wait! We already _have_ WebObjects-based JavaClient, and
Direct-To-JavaClient and it works today and has for _years_.
Sure, it's not as "cool" as a browser-based solution, in the same
way WO isn't as "cool" as Ruby.
**ducks, runs for cover and scrambles to get the D2JC project
template updated**
Dave
On Nov 6, 2009, at 7:32 AM, Anjo Krank wrote:
Not really sure... basically you'd need something totally new,
as this would be more like JavaClient and not like a web app.
But all this is *moot* until we don't have it.
Cheers, Anjo
Am 06.11.2009 um 13:05 schrieb Mike Schrag:
Yeah .. I suspect there could be a GianduiaLook, and that would
make a lot of sesnse.
ms
I think we've seen with the SproutCore stuff that it's not.
Apart from *maybe* a JS D2W.
Cheers, Anjo
Am 06.11.2009 um 02:54 schrieb Mike Schrag:
rom my perspective, I don't know that it's worth building a
server stack on top of it as much as I think it would be nice
to leverage the development tools we already have to make it
easier to write the Javascript.
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David Avendasora
Senior Software Engineer
K12, Inc.
*****
WebObjects Documentation Wiki : http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WO/
*****
WebObjects API: http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/documentation/MacOSXServer/Reference/WO54_Reference/index.html
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David Avendasora
Senior Software Engineer
K12, Inc.
*****
WebObjects Documentation Wiki : http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WO/
*****
WebObjects API: http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/documentation/MacOSXServer/Reference/WO54_Reference/index.html
*****
David Avendasora
Senior Software Engineer
K12, Inc.
*****
WebObjects Documentation Wiki : http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WO/
*****
WebObjects API: http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/documentation/MacOSXServer/Reference/WO54_Reference/index.html
*****
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