Re: 2.1.1 and xterm
Re: 2.1.1 and xterm
- Subject: Re: 2.1.1 and xterm
- From: Jim Elliott <email@hidden>
- Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:25:39 -0600
On Dec 13, 2007, at 19:48, Chip Griffin wrote:
On Dec 13, 2007, at 01:08, Jeremy Huddleston wrote:
On Dec 12, 2007, at 20:12, Chip Griffin wrote:
OK. How about for consistencies sake if we go back to having it
controlled by .xinitrc!
No. You're missing the point. When the server starts, no
applications run (except quartz-wm).
I guess. Truly I am beginning to think someone changed my native
tongue because we seem to be having a lot of trouble communicating.
This is not the behavior I am seeing. When the server starts, Xterm
starts even though it is not mentioned in my .xinitrc. The only
thing executed in my .xinitrc file is quartz-wm (aside from
resource management stuff). See below for my actual .xinitrc.
Let me see if I can jump in as a third party and clarify anything.
It seems there is a fundamental misunderstanding here, and if it is
the one that I think it is, it's not surprising because of the deep
change in the way X11 works with Leopard and the volume of discussion
on this list in the past few weeks.
Here is what I think the crux of the misunderstanding is, and please
let me know if and how I am wrong: Chip, you believe that you launch
X11 by clicking on its icon in Applications.
That was the way things used to work prior to Leopard.
There is no longer any need to ever launch X11 yourself. The system
is set up through launchd configuration such that whenever any
application tries to use X11 resources, the server is started if it
is not already running. If it is already running, the new application
is simply connected to that existing server.
As a convenience for people who used to launch X11 manually to get an
XTerm, there is a visible application which performs that action by
default when launched. So if you do happen to start X by opening the
application, an XTerm is opened. That behavior can be changed if you
want to, through the mechanisms Jeremy described. But the easiest
thing is to simply stop launching X11 manually, and just use your X
applications directly.
If it ain't there it should not start.
Right, it doesn't.
This is not the behavior I'm seeing, nor are others from what I can
tell.
Can you describe precisely the context in which you are not seeing
things behave this way?
Perhaps you have scripts, either written by you or by third parties,
which are explicitly trying to launch the X server? If so, these
scripts need to be updated for the Leopard world, or you can change
the defaults if that is easier in the interim. Eventually, such
scripts and wrapper code should fade away.
But how is this consistent? It doesn't follow the behavior in the
old regime where X11 would only execute those items called out in
the system xinitrc or the personal .xinitrc.
That is still the way things work. But if you launch the new "X11"
application manually you are doing more than starting the X server,
you are saying "I want to open an Xterm". This is why Jeremy (or
someone) said "Perhaps the app bundle should have been renamed
Xterm.app" Or perhaps X11 should simply have been removed from Finder-
visible space, but that might have disoriented people even more.
I understand that there is a method to control it, but it is new
and therefore not consistent. In the old regime I, as a power user,
could edit the .xinitrc and change the behavior from the default
(launch xterm) to the desired (whatever that might be, launch other
wm, launch other programs, etc). Now I can somewhat do that, but
the methodology is completely different (edit some plist somewhere,
which is definitely not unix-like but rather distinctly Mac-like).
So it sounds to me like the only two ways to launch exclusively the
X app I want (and no other) is to either (a) launch the X app from
a terminal window (such as Terminal.app) or (b) edit the plist
where app_to_run is mentioned.
Well, no, you can double-click on that application's icon too.
OK, I can do that. But let's not call it consistent because it's
not how we did things in the past. It's a change. Change is good
when it's warranted. As hard as you're defending it I can guess
that there are some strong reasons for it. I have studied
programming on and off over the years, but a programmer I am not,
so I will take it at face value.
There are hugely strong reasons for it, but not from the programmer's
point of view nearly so much as from the Mac X11 users' point of
view, especially new users coming to the platform. It makes vastly
many things just work which previously required user intervention and
special cases. Once application bundlers get rid of those special
cases, the Mac will be a much more normal X environment for everyone.
Right now we're suffering through a turbulent period of change, but
it's for tremendously valuable reasons. I won't repeat them, but if
you dig back through the archives, you can find them. (Someone who
has a message on the tip of their archive might be able to point you
at some fruitful dates.)
Let me take a step back from previous comments and be 100% clear
here. I am tremendously grateful for the efforts of Jeremy, Ben,
and all the others who work to make X11, Xquartz, and the other
pieces of the puzzle work. Paid or volunteer, your efforts are
applauded. My comments above are not meant to stir controversy or
irritate but rather are an effort to understand and clarify how and
why things work the way they do.
Yes, I'd definitely encourage you to look back through the archives
for the explanation of the new launchd approach.
-Jim
Thanks.
-- Chip
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