Re: plugin accessibility
Re: plugin accessibility
- Subject: Re: plugin accessibility
- From: David Bolter <email@hidden>
- Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 15:31:14 -0400
Hi Daniel,
Thanks for saying this. I certainly apologize if anyone thinks I'm
wasting the list's time but I assure you I have read the documentation at:
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/Accessibility/cocoaAXOverview/cocoaAXOverview.html
... and I'm still confused.
best regards,
David
On 8/16/09 2:49 PM, Daniel Jalkut wrote:
I empathize with being frustrated by questions that seem "obvious"...
I don't know enough about accessibility to judge whether David's
questions are truly abusive of the list's time or not.
But it always feels to me when this kind of blanket "it's obvious if
you read the manual" response overlooks the possibility that somebody
could have read the documentation and still be confused.
It's not as though reading the manual ever solved all of my problems
or disabused me of all my misconceptions.
Impatient outbursts like this might do a good job of discouraging
people from wasting the list's time, but I imagine it will also scare
people off who have read the documentation, are still confused, but
are now too afraid of being ridiculed to ask a question.
When I'm tempted to respond in such a manner, I try to remind myself
that being supremely impatient and dismissive is as unproductive an
activity for a list as being naive and oblivious. Ideally,
representatives of both camps would refrain from posting.
Daniel
On Aug 16, 2009, at 5:30am, Christiaan Hofman wrote:
(sigh) RTFM!
Plugins are not inserted in any hierarchy. If you want to know WHAT
(UI elements) is inserted and HOW your plugin can insert stuff (make
UI) in the hierarchy that's accessible, you RTFM! And if you did,
you'd know that whether it is in Safari.app or Bugaloo.app, or
whether it's inside the app itself or coming from a plugin DOES NOIT
MATTER! So of course the docs won't mention Safari plugins.
You're really looking at it from the wrong point, so you're still
asking the wrong questions. Cocoa accessibility is different from
Mozilla's. First LEARN how Cocoa accessibility is implemented and
then ASK YOURSELF how your code can make use of that.
Christiaan
On Aug 16, 2009, at 4:10 AM, David Bolter wrote:
Hi Christiaan,
I wasn't clear earlier but it is exactly the insertion of plugins
into the heirarchy that I'm currently interested in, and more
specifically the proposal here:
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Plugins:NativeAccessibility
You've provided me with information that I am still having trouble
finding in these docs -- namely that Safari plugins are not inserted
into the heirarchy, and therefore there probably isn't a strategy
for inserting OOP plugins into the accessible tree.
As browsers move more to muti-process architectures, including
muti-process content, I think it is worthwhile thinking through the
right places to solve the related issues so I'm looking to see what
others are doing. For example, native accessibility architectures
tend to be synchronous, but maybe we want to rethink that. I don't
want to go too off topic here though.
cheers,
David
On 8/15/09 3:00 PM, Christiaan Hofman wrote:
On Aug 15, 2009, at 8:11 PM, David Bolter wrote:
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately I'm particularly interested in
how plugins are inserted into the heirarchy (if they are), and
especially how this is implemented for OOP plugins (probably
wrapping and remoting). I'll investigate.
Plugins are not inserted in the hierarchy. If you'd read these docs
you'd know that saying this doesn't even make sense. The docs tell
you WHAT is inserted and HOW. I advice you not to return until
you've read and understood these docs.
Christiaan
If anyone on this list is has done or is currently implementing
this I'd like to chat. Note: I'll likely be pinging Jonas at
Google soon too; note:
http://sites.google.com/a/chromium.org/dev/developers/design-documents/accessibility#TOC-Synchronous-IPC-for-Accessibility
cheers,
David
On 8/15/09 1:51 PM, Christiaan Hofman wrote:
On Aug 15, 2009, at 7:40 PM, David Bolter wrote:
Hi Christiaan,
Thanks for your reply. I was hoping this would be a good way to
start a discussion about OOP plugin accessibility but maybe this
list isn't the right place?
I probably didn't look at the right docs... can you point me to
the one with all the answers? :)
cheers,
David
<http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/Accessibility/cocoaAXOverview/cocoaAXOverview.html>
explains how accessibility is implemented in Cocoa. From that it
should be clear that "safari" or "plugin" are totally irrelevant
to the discussion. It only matters stuff is inserted in the
hierarchy, which is more a question of what they do then what
they are.
Christiaan
On 8/14/09 5:05 PM, Christiaan Hofman wrote:
On Aug 14, 2009, at 8:37 PM, David Bolter wrote:
Hi all.
Does Safari have any plugin accessibility support?
Yes.
If so, what about for out of process plugins?
cheers,
David
No.
If the answers aren't very useful that's because you're asking
the wrong questions (just a friendly advice, the docs have all
the answers).
Christiaan
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