Re: plugin accessibility
Re: plugin accessibility
- Subject: Re: plugin accessibility
- From: Christiaan Hofman <email@hidden>
- Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 21:54:30 +0200
On Aug 16, 2009, at 9:31 PM, David Bolter wrote:
Hi Daniel,
Thanks for saying this. I certainly apologize if anyone thinks I'm
wasting the list's time but I assure you I have read the
documentation at:
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/Accessibility/cocoaAXOverview/cocoaAXOverview.html
... and I'm still confused.
best regards,
David
But do you /understand/ it? And not just that single section, also the
rest of the docs and perhaps a few links. in the guide. You should
then know that the hierarchy consists of UI elements (which are /
objects/ like windows, views, etc). It should be obvious that a
"plugin" is not in any way a UI element, so asking how to insert it in
the hierarchy is senseless.
Again I say: you're asking the wrong question. The question you could
ask is: "how can a plugin insert an accessible object in the
accessibility hierarchy?" And in fact, the word "plugin" in this
question is completely superfluous, you could just replace it with
"any code".
The answer should be clear from the docs, which tells you how the
hierarchy is implemented in MacOSX: if you insert a view in the view
hierarchy, it will automatically be part of the accessibility
hierarchy, that's all there is to it. After that, it becomes a
question on how to implement the accessibility protocol, which is
explained in the various docs. However, none of this has /anything/ to
do with either "Safari" nor "plugin" in particular. The only thing
that may be specific to Safari plugins is how views coming from a
plugin are inserted, but that's a question about Safari plugins (that
you probably know) and not about accessibility.
Christiaan
On 8/16/09 2:49 PM, Daniel Jalkut wrote:
I empathize with being frustrated by questions that seem
"obvious"... I don't know enough about accessibility to judge
whether David's questions are truly abusive of the list's time or
not.
But it always feels to me when this kind of blanket "it's obvious
if you read the manual" response overlooks the possibility that
somebody could have read the documentation and still be confused.
It's not as though reading the manual ever solved all of my
problems or disabused me of all my misconceptions.
Impatient outbursts like this might do a good job of discouraging
people from wasting the list's time, but I imagine it will also
scare people off who have read the documentation, are still
confused, but are now too afraid of being ridiculed to ask a
question.
When I'm tempted to respond in such a manner, I try to remind
myself that being supremely impatient and dismissive is as
unproductive an activity for a list as being naive and oblivious.
Ideally, representatives of both camps would refrain from posting.
Daniel
On Aug 16, 2009, at 5:30am, Christiaan Hofman wrote:
(sigh) RTFM!
Plugins are not inserted in any hierarchy. If you want to know
WHAT (UI elements) is inserted and HOW your plugin can insert
stuff (make UI) in the hierarchy that's accessible, you RTFM! And
if you did, you'd know that whether it is in Safari.app or
Bugaloo.app, or whether it's inside the app itself or coming from
a plugin DOES NOIT MATTER! So of course the docs won't mention
Safari plugins.
You're really looking at it from the wrong point, so you're still
asking the wrong questions. Cocoa accessibility is different from
Mozilla's. First LEARN how Cocoa accessibility is implemented and
then ASK YOURSELF how your code can make use of that.
Christiaan
On Aug 16, 2009, at 4:10 AM, David Bolter wrote:
Hi Christiaan,
I wasn't clear earlier but it is exactly the insertion of plugins
into the heirarchy that I'm currently interested in, and more
specifically the proposal here:
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Plugins:NativeAccessibility
You've provided me with information that I am still having
trouble finding in these docs -- namely that Safari plugins are
not inserted into the heirarchy, and therefore there probably
isn't a strategy for inserting OOP plugins into the accessible
tree.
As browsers move more to muti-process architectures, including
muti-process content, I think it is worthwhile thinking through
the right places to solve the related issues so I'm looking to
see what others are doing. For example, native accessibility
architectures tend to be synchronous, but maybe we want to
rethink that. I don't want to go too off topic here though.
cheers,
David
On 8/15/09 3:00 PM, Christiaan Hofman wrote:
On Aug 15, 2009, at 8:11 PM, David Bolter wrote:
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately I'm particularly interested
in how plugins are inserted into the heirarchy (if they are),
and especially how this is implemented for OOP plugins
(probably wrapping and remoting). I'll investigate.
Plugins are not inserted in the hierarchy. If you'd read these
docs you'd know that saying this doesn't even make sense. The
docs tell you WHAT is inserted and HOW. I advice you not to
return until you've read and understood these docs.
Christiaan
If anyone on this list is has done or is currently implementing
this I'd like to chat. Note: I'll likely be pinging Jonas at
Google soon too; note: http://sites.google.com/a/chromium.org/dev/developers/design-documents/accessibility#TOC-Synchronous-IPC-for-Accessibility
cheers,
David
On 8/15/09 1:51 PM, Christiaan Hofman wrote:
On Aug 15, 2009, at 7:40 PM, David Bolter wrote:
Hi Christiaan,
Thanks for your reply. I was hoping this would be a good way
to start a discussion about OOP plugin accessibility but
maybe this list isn't the right place?
I probably didn't look at the right docs... can you point me
to the one with all the answers? :)
cheers,
David
<http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/Accessibility/cocoaAXOverview/cocoaAXOverview.html
> explains how accessibility is implemented in Cocoa. From
that it should be clear that "safari" or "plugin" are totally
irrelevant to the discussion. It only matters stuff is
inserted in the hierarchy, which is more a question of what
they do then what they are.
Christiaan
On 8/14/09 5:05 PM, Christiaan Hofman wrote:
On Aug 14, 2009, at 8:37 PM, David Bolter wrote:
Hi all.
Does Safari have any plugin accessibility support?
Yes.
If so, what about for out of process plugins?
cheers,
David
No.
If the answers aren't very useful that's because you're
asking the wrong questions (just a friendly advice, the docs
have all the answers).
Christiaan
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