Re: Cocoa Loco
Re: Cocoa Loco
- Subject: Re: Cocoa Loco
- From: "John C. Welch" <email@hidden>
- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 08:04:23 -0500
On 03/03/2003 00:27, "Christopher Nebel" <email@hidden> wrote:
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You seem to be under the impression that Apple, and more specifically,
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the Cocoa team, (a) thinks Cocoa Scripting is just fine the way it is,
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(b) doesn't have the slightest idea what AppleScript is supposed to
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look like, and (c) is engaged in active deconstruction -- any new
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features will look less like AppleScript, not more.
Well, it's the impression that Apple gives off. Or, in some cases, judging
by the eye rolls...they really want AppleScript to disappear into an
oubliette.
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All of these are incorrect. In fact they've got a long list of bugs
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(and will readily admit that they're real), have a pretty good grasp of
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proper AppleScript and confer with the AppleScript team when they
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don't, and are engaged in forward progress. (Don't believe me? Go
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read /Developer/Documentation/ReleaseNotes/CocoaScripting.html.)
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Yes, I realize you're frustrated, but please realize:
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a. If a Mail problem is really in Cocoa, yelling at cricket won't
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produce a directly useful response, because fixing Cocoa isn't his job.
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Sure, he can file a bug and stump for it, but ultimately it's up to
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the Cocoa team. It would be wrong for him to make any claims about
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when they would fix one of their bugs.
Well, he's now got lots of supporting documentation for those bugs ;-)
I'm also seeing in the release notes you offer, how I can now just "make new
outgoing message" in mail, not " make new outgoing message at end of
outgoing messages " But when I do, where's my new message? I don't know.
It's not in drafts, it doesn't seem to be anywhere. Yet, for a *new*
scripter, they're going to NEED an *obvious* indication that there's a
fresh, blank message waiting for them to type in.
If I do (what seems to be) the obvious, and run the following against Mail:
set theMessage to make new outgoing message
open theMessage
Then I get this:
Mail got an error: outgoing message id 36838800 doesn't understand the open
message.
So I have some mystery message that I can't open. Yet those *same* two lines
work as expected for E'rage. Beginning scripters need that consistent
behavior, and it's *not there*, even though "make new outgoing message" has,
according to the Cocoa notes, *been fixed in Cocoa*.
So now, Cricket's set up the expectation that anytime we see a fix done in
Cocoa Scripting, it will automagically show up in Mail...which isn't really
going to happen, even in the land of OOP.
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b. The Cocoa folks are starting from a ways back, so to speak -- the
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original implementation, while it managed to provide a lot of useful
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functionality, also had some serious shortcomings, and they're still
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dealing with some of them. These shortcomings are not considered
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features.
You mean Cocoa's not perfect? ;-)
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c. Writing around Cocoa scripting problems in client applications is
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not generally feasible -- the problems are hard.
Every so often, OOP Sucks.
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d. Filing bugs is a good way to be constructive.
I'm waiting for the (relatively) *small* ones I filed, like fixing the
bloody keychain dictionary to get fixed. Mail's dictionary is an annoyance,
don't misunderstand, but the broken state of Keychain Scripting is *stopping
work*, and no, UI Scripting doesn't seem to work in KeyChain access for what
I need. Just checked, bug still open, radar# 3055102
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What I object to in all this is you (a) slandering the Cocoa team and
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(b) refusing to do anything other than gripe on a public mailing list.
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The Cocoa team members are competent, hard-working people, and I will
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not stand for people slamming them as "NeXTie Unix-heads with no
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respect for AppleScript as we know it." If you don't want to file
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bugs, then that's your business, but in that case you can hope that
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someone else filed a bug and wait quietly for the next release. If you
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file a bug, you know it's filed, and you can find out what its status
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is. Yes, we do fix them from time to time. If you file a bug against
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Mail (or whatever) that's really in Cocoa Scripting, it will get
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forwarded appropriately. Really.
Then how about some decent release notes? I mean, you guys do a decent job
with what you can, but here's what I see. If I develop in Obj-C, C(++), or
Java, I get reams of documentation, updated regularly and legions of people
with little Apple logos standing by to help.
If I develop in AppleScript, I get a language guide that hasn't been updated
in six major language revisions, (and it's just sheer luck and great design
that it's as applicable as it is), a set of development tools with no way to
effectively debug scripts, and every release, I have to play "In Search
Of..." to find out what, if anything's been fixed.
I realize that AppleScript doesn't fit into the neat Carbon/Cocoa/Java
categories, but come on, the lack of developer documentation is not good,
considering that at Apple, it predates Java, Carbon *AND* Cocoa.
Look in Technical Notes by Technology, you get *5*, and out of the 3 that
are for scripters, only *one* is current and or relevant: TN2065
The last technical Q&A on AppleScript is from April of 2002. The last one
that a scripter would use is from March of 2002.
Look inside of Project builder help, and see what you get on AppleScript vs.
Other languages...and no obvious warning in the debugging section that you
can't use breakpoints on AppleScript code.
Even on the Applescript site, there's nothing for System Events, URL Access,
Internet Connect, or the Keychain.
You think it sucks from your end? Try doing Sysadmin scripts if you want to
really get that pariah feeling. At least if i'm scripting Mail, there's
*something*. One day, if i ever get the time and the domain, I'm going to
get my "AppleScript for Sysadmins" site up.
But even then, the fact that Apple isn't creating this documentation *first*
is a major problem.
john
--
Anybody who doesn't have fear is an idiot. It's just that you must make the
fear work for you. Hell, when somebody shot at me, it made me madder than
hell, and all I wanted to do was shoot back.
-- General Robin Olds, USAF.
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