Re: Cocoa Loco
Re: Cocoa Loco
- Subject: Re: Cocoa Loco
- From: Christopher Nebel <email@hidden>
- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 21:27:53 -0800
On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 05:58 AM, John C. Welch wrote (edited for
brevity):
On 03/02/2003 07:50, "John Delacour" <email@hidden> wrote:
My problem with this is that there seem to be two Applescripts -- on
the one the Applescript that other people and, occasionally in the
past (cf. Scriptable Text Editor, WorldText, Claris Emailer) Apple
have developed and implemented and on the other a strange perversion
of this now being developed and implemented by people with no
apparent knowledge or respect for the language as we have known it.
It is difficult for me to be "constructive" other than to suggest
that those currently charged with Applescript deconstruction get
their act together.
I have to agree with John here. Now, normally, I'd file a bug. But
why? I *know* the answer will be "when it's fixed in Cocoa, it will
be fixed in <application>." Not only is Cocoa scripting *seriously*
problematic, but there's no real point in telling anyone, because all
fingers get pointed to the friggin' frameworks. AppleScript in Cocoa
is *broken*, and no amount of PR spin, or tenacious defending is going
to change that fact.
You seem to be under the impression that Apple, and more specifically,
the Cocoa team, (a) thinks Cocoa Scripting is just fine the way it is,
(b) doesn't have the slightest idea what AppleScript is supposed to
look like, and (c) is engaged in active deconstruction -- any new
features will look less like AppleScript, not more.
All of these are incorrect. In fact they've got a long list of bugs
(and will readily admit that they're real), have a pretty good grasp of
proper AppleScript and confer with the AppleScript team when they
don't, and are engaged in forward progress. (Don't believe me? Go
read /Developer/Documentation/ReleaseNotes/CocoaScripting.html.)
Yes, I realize you're frustrated, but please realize:
a. If a Mail problem is really in Cocoa, yelling at cricket won't
produce a directly useful response, because fixing Cocoa isn't his job.
Sure, he can file a bug and stump for it, but ultimately it's up to
the Cocoa team. It would be wrong for him to make any claims about
when they would fix one of their bugs.
b. The Cocoa folks are starting from a ways back, so to speak -- the
original implementation, while it managed to provide a lot of useful
functionality, also had some serious shortcomings, and they're still
dealing with some of them. These shortcomings are not considered
features.
c. Writing around Cocoa scripting problems in client applications is
not generally feasible -- the problems are hard.
d. Filing bugs is a good way to be constructive.
What I object to in all this is you (a) slandering the Cocoa team and
(b) refusing to do anything other than gripe on a public mailing list.
The Cocoa team members are competent, hard-working people, and I will
not stand for people slamming them as "NeXTie Unix-heads with no
respect for AppleScript as we know it." If you don't want to file
bugs, then that's your business, but in that case you can hope that
someone else filed a bug and wait quietly for the next release. If you
file a bug, you know it's filed, and you can find out what its status
is. Yes, we do fix them from time to time. If you file a bug against
Mail (or whatever) that's really in Cocoa Scripting, it will get
forwarded appropriately. Really.
Shutting up now,
--Chris Nebel
AppleScript Engineering
P.S.: The last time I encouraged folks to write bugs in Radar, we got
several badly written bugs. Some guidelines for folks who decide to
participate:
1. File a bug on a specific issue. A bug on a 100-line script that
"doesn't work" is not specific.
2. Read the problem template and follow its instructions.
3. Use an informative title. "item 0 of a list crashes" is an
informative title. "AppleScript is broken" is not.
4. Try to reproduce the problem in the fewest steps possible. Short
scripts are better than long scripts.
5. Describe both what did happen and what you expected to happen.
6. Include the OS version, and the application version if applicable.
7. Don't editorialize. Think Joe Friday: just the facts.
8. Don't diagnose. That's our job.
Also, some people worried that enhancement requests were not suitable
for Radar, because Radar is all about "bugs." Actually it covers both:
just check the "enhancement request" checkbox.
The url is <
http://bugreporter.apple.com>. You need an ADC membership
to file bugs, but you can get one for free -- see the "Please Note"
sidebar on that page.
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