Re: [OT] Avoiding Unnecessary Updates -- WAS: Re: IS: Script Editor Styles Format Change Script -- WAS: Re: String to list conversion
Re: [OT] Avoiding Unnecessary Updates -- WAS: Re: IS: Script Editor Styles Format Change Script -- WAS: Re: String to list conversion
- Subject: Re: [OT] Avoiding Unnecessary Updates -- WAS: Re: IS: Script Editor Styles Format Change Script -- WAS: Re: String to list conversion
- From: Johnny AppleScript <email@hidden>
- Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:05:53 -0600
On 04/09/14 11:52 PM, "John C. Welch" <email@hidden> wrote:
> I have, and on clean systems, had zero problems with any of the updates
> through 10.1.4
Again, it may be that our installations are non-standard. But we're not the
only ones that reported problems; perhaps they were not pervasive, but they
do exist, and it's not worth the time to find out if I'm right or wrong at
this moment.
> So you only apply updates to anything when they fix a specific problem
> you're having? Does that include the OS too?
Pretty much, yes. I'll apply, for example, a security update or a patch to
any app where the vendor makes clear a potential issue that I can foresee
happening given our setup before such a problem may occur, but, again, if it
isn't broken, I don't seek to fix it. I'm still on OS X 10.3.3., and have
not seen any issues that compel me to go to 10.3.5. I am only on Panther
because someone else paid for it; I still use Jag on other machines, and
have not gone beyond 10.2.6 on any of those.
Panther offers a lot, but not quite enough to justify the expense in those
cases.
I also still use iTunes 4.2, and earlier versions of many an app. I even use
Canvas 3.5.2. They're not broken, why fix them? New version may offer new
features, but if I don't need those features, and as many such improvements
often overly complicate or slow down performance of existing features, why
pay for them? I also drive a 1963 T-bird that I bought as my very first car
when I was 15. Runs great, looks great, drives great. Ford even gave me free
fixes for a couple of items years and years and years beyond the warranty
expired, and I was the second owner. How's that for treating your customers
well? Makes me buy Fords each time a new one is in order.
> Why is it when anyone defends MS, they're accused of being apologists as if
> no one rationally could actually LIKE a MS product?
And why is it when apologists exclaim the above question, they nearly always
imply the accusers have no love or appreciation of the product? Doesn't it
stand to reason that a complainer takes the time to complain because he
otherwise loves, or at least appreciates the program and must use it, or at
least chooses to use it over all others? Does such choice relinquish the
right to find fault, and assess when such fault should require payment and
which should be covered by payment already rendered?
> No, but if you think that any company is going to blow off a paid upgrade
> with new features until all bugs are fixed, you're hallucinating. Apple
> doesn't even do that.
I don't think such a thing, nor did I ever state as such. That doesn't stop
Apple, or even Microsoft, from issuing free critical updates to both OS and
apps. I still get free updates to Jaguar, and iApps, even though Panther is
now around a year old. Why should I expect less from an app that cost more,
from the same company that still occasionally releases an update to its own
free email app?
> Okay, so in other words any time that you charge for any update that has any
> bug fixes in it, it's a tax. You don't seem to mind the Apple tax, or any
> other company's tax, because EVERY COMPUTER COMPANY ON THE PLANET DOES THIS.
> It's called *revenue generation* and without it, you go out of business.
No, not quite; you're twisting my words to suit your opinion. Perhaps nearly
everyone, including Apple, does do it to some degree. That doesn't make it
right, that doesn't mean it won't affect my purchasing choices when one
company chooses to make a particularly egregious, or cumulatively heavy
abuse of the practice. There are plenty of reputable software companies who
do just fine by making a best Good Faith effort to fix what should be fixed
for payment already received. I'll look for those best of breed when
spending my money, and it's up to the companies to decide just how far they
want to push their customer base. Too often its an entrenched IT manager
that makes that decision for everyone, and normal market response is quashed
before it can correct an issue that should be resolved.
> How did you buy them? I bought copies of Office X a month before 2004 came
> out, but because I didn't buy them retail, no free upgrade. Such is life.
Most were purchased with technology grants at retail. The cutoff was January
6th, 2004, for a product that didn't ship until, what, May? June? The JMF
bug was first experienced here and reported to MS in the first half of 2003.
At least one updater was released after that, if memory serves.
> Again, no company in the computer market does what you demand MS does, not
> Apple, not IBM, not anyone.
I disagree with the last statement, but I will allow that you may have meant
to say "major company", because there are plenty of good small developers
who do not share your cynicism, and who fix bugs long after they are no
longer expected by your crowd to do so. Even ACD has released a patch for
Canvas 3.5.5 (so far; other patches for earlier versions are scheduled) to
fix a semi-fatal flaw, even though they bought the product line from Deneba
and the product in question was completed nearly nine years years ago, and
they are now on version 9. Now, to clarify, I would not have expected them
to fix this bug at all if it had anything to do with trying to run it on OS
X, or even if running it on the G5 was the problem. Much like VPC 6 can't
run on the G5, there are certain things that many people can reasonably put
a clock or technology cutoff on. ACD recognizes that a problem created by
Deneba is unfairly affecting customers who haven't paid them a dime in ten
years, and yet they saw what needed to be done, and even went above and
beyond by providing not only support, but a patch. They could have just
said, sorry, support on that product was discontinued years ago, but they
didn't.
That's a company I'm more likely to give money to than the likes of Adobe
when it comes time to buy new graphics software.
> No, really? Could you get Mail/Mozilla/Eudora to not crash when a crappily
> built email comes in, because I've watched every email client on the planet
> practically crash if probed the right way.
Well, the thing is, I've never seen Mail or Emailer or Outlook Express crash
repeatedly on the same email in the same way that the JMF bug is repeatable.
I can't speak for Eudora as to what fatal bugs it has that have gone
unfixed, but for a long darn time, Eudora and Mozilla, were, and still are,
free in one form or another, so how do you count them in this discussion?
Technically, Mail is free, too. And yet all those apps see continuously free
updates or upgrades, and even if they don't, I never paid for anything I'm
not getting by using them. Again, I recently downloaded at least two updates
form Mail under Jag, so even Apple steps up to the plate when it's deemed
critical or fatal even though their now on the next version.
I think to make your point you're going to have to bring in fully commercial
apps like PowerMail and Mailsmith, and I doubt even you're willing to put
the makers of those apps in the same level of customer care and
communication that you place MS. But I'd be more than grateful to hear of
any such fatal bugs and/or poor customer support from Bare Bones before I
opt to send them any more money.
> Well, if you want certain fixes, you buy the new version. That's how it
> works with all commercial software. Your like or dislike is immaterial,
> since reality doesn't care if we *like* it.
But some companies are more aware of everyone's reality, not just their own,
and care more than others, so I'll go with them, thanks.
> That's because MS has to wait on Apple for certain bug fixes, like the HFS+
> bug fix that came out in 10.2 so that large files wouldn't get randomly
> truncated. There's a number of bugs that are Apple's fault. How, pray tell
> should MS fix those? And you can run Linux on your Mac hardware, so you
> don't "have" to go with them either.
We have never once faulted a company whose dependency on another was the
source of the fault. Has MS announced that they can't fix the JMF bug
because of something Apple has failed to do? If they did, we missed it, and
will instead turn our complaints to Apple if you can provide that data.
> They didn't just do a 'bug fix' with the JMF, they rewrote the thing
> entirely, because that was the best way to get it to work right with the way
> SPAM is being done, and allow them to update it. So, your assumption that
> the JMF improvements in 2004 are just "bug fixes" that MS is somehow trying
> to steal money from you for is incorrect.
Well, fi that's the case, the right thing to do would be to offer at least a
discount for those who are suffering a loss of use over a poorly designed
product. Lots and lots of companies do that all the time. Many call it a
Quality Assurance program or some such. I would recommend reconsidering
purchasing Office 2004 if MS were to negotiate some reasonable price break
for broken features now fixed in the new version. Even an offer of $10 per
copy would at least bring us to the table.
> I love how, in all these arguments, "Do The Right Thing" ALWAYS, not mostly
> but ALWAYS translates to "Give me what I want for free in perpetuity".
You should have your Universal Translator looked at; it appears to be
defective. See the many examples above as clear statement to the contrary.
Is it just me, or has SciFi Channel so badly hacked up vintage Star Trek
episodes that they are no longer worth watching?
JA (who really must think about seeing someone about this insomnia, as it is
only Wednesday and the idea of another three days of work before the weekend
is a bit daunting)
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