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Re: Apple, Are You Listening?
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Re: Apple, Are You Listening?


  • Subject: Re: Apple, Are You Listening?
  • From: Scott Anguish <email@hidden>
  • Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 15:21:22 -0400

On Jun 1, 2004, at 9:13 AM, Karl Goiser wrote:

Hello,

I am generally a lurker, sometimes popping up to ask an inane question, often too late to contribute to the list...

What is the cocoa-dev mailing list? When you think about it, it is actually a problem solving list: somebody asks, "how do you do this", or "I can't get this to work" and generous people respond with suggestions.


that is answered best by About The List on the web site.

The Cocoa Development list is for discussions regarding native Mac OS X application development using the Cocoa Frameworks: Foundation and Application Kit. Cocoa is one of the principal application environments for Mac OS X, based on advanced object oriented APIs that allow development in Java and Objective-C. Subscribers to this list discuss frameworks, features, and technical issues specific to Cocoa application development.

It occurred to me the other day that the cocoa-dev mailing list could be used by Apple as a source for determining areas that could be improved. So.. if they looked at the types of problems that people on the list have and did a simple frequency count, they'd find the most common problems and problem areas. These areas could then be targeted with better documentation, tech notes or addressing the code base itself.

Several Apple employees read the list, but nobody is assigned to read the list. It's intended as a form of communication amongst developers, not from developers to Apple. Not all the people who read the list and answer questions who work for Apple post from their Apple.com addresses. I don't, yet I'm upfront about what my job is (writing Cocoa docs for Apple) as are others.

Of course, the next step would be to look at the problem areas and try to find out why people have problems with them and try to address the issue in general.

And this happens, to a degree. However, the only approved method of providing feedback is using bugreporter.apple.com.

We can read the list and often diagnose areas that need improvement, but it's not always clear exactly what the developer has read, hasn't read, etc. And that requires direct information from the developer. In addition, it's bugs to a large extent, that prioritize what gets worked on and when.



Image the possibility of diminishing the number of messages to the list by pre-empting problems?

in many cases the issue is that people don't read the existing docs or can't find the doc, and people end up pointing them to them. In other cases people are just trying to work around issues, or do things that are not covered be the docs.



So, this might be countered by saying that that's what the faq's and searchable archives are about. True. But consider the extreme case where Apple might look at an area where people are having problems and fix it in the code. Wouldn't that be wonderful and fantastic for everybody?



those fixes are driven by bug reports. Often examples of what is broken (i.e. sample code from the developer) is required. You just can't get that from monitoring the list, and it certainly isn't an effective way of doing it.
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