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Re: Re(6): embedded profiles in PDF/Postscript
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Re: Re(6): embedded profiles in PDF/Postscript


  • Subject: Re: Re(6): embedded profiles in PDF/Postscript
  • From: Chris Murphy <email@hidden>
  • Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 17:08:32 -0600

On Jun 6, 2004, at 9:09 AM, Roger Breton wrote:

I see. You say that there is always the risk of either indicating the wrong
pointer to a printing condition or embedding the wrong ICC profile. But
there is no way to protect against this kind of error, is there?

1. A calibrated display (ideally we'd all have only self-calibrating displays)
2. An application that does display compensation; i.e. the profile to be embedded is used as source for the data being displayed (and vice versa), and the destination is the display profile.
3. The human recognizes that what they see on screen is a very close representation of the colors they are asking for, when manipulating the file.

If those three things occur, then the embedded profile is correct. Even if SWOP is not the destination, if a user is working on a CMYK file, tagged SWOP, and likes that image, the embedded profile is correct. If the output conditions deviate substantially (admittedly there is a moving threshold with that statement) from the source, then a conversion is necessary. For soft proofing it's display compensation. For hard proofing it's a full conversion. For printing to a press, it rapidly gets dicey because there are all kinds of things we do and don't want to have happen with such a transition from source to destination, and the current implementations are severely lacking in dealing with those problems.


Do these profiles exist anywhere in an 'ICC' format? Or will I have to
extract them out of an existing PDF file to open them up wih ColorSync
Utility? I'm curious to see what I will find out, because I've not seen them
documented in the official Adobe PDF 1.5 Specifications anywhere. They are
mentioned in the specs but not defined.

I'm not sure but they may not exist in PDF 1.5. They might be found in PDF 1.2 and earlier, and carried over from those specs for legacy support. I thought the terms were carryovers from the PostScript era anyway. The method to use today is tagging with ICC profiles.

As you see, Adobe has not deemed important to offer a "Convert all colors to
CMYK". Why? I would think that if I have a PostScript file with RGB images,
each tagged with their own individual ICC profiles (some in AdobeRGB, some
in sRGB and some with ColorMatchRGB), I would want to have a way to go
beyond merely tagging that data to actually converting those RGB images to
whatheve CMYK Destination space and use that as my OutputIntent in a
PDF/X-1a. Or do you have that functionality in your Callas products already?

ICC profiles do not exist in a PostScript stream. They get converted to PostScript CSA's. So to do this, you'd be asking for a less than high quality conversion asking the PostScript interpreter to convert from CSA tagged RGB to a CRD destination; and then once it's normalized to PDF to get tagged properly with the originally ICC version (from which the CRD was created). I don't think this is a particular useful workflow myself, and I think Adobe probably disregarded it as well because it makes very device dependent PDFs which Adobe tries to avoid unless it's one of the PDF/X-s.

If you want something like this, the solution is to tag everything or tag only images. Any CSA's get converted to ICC profiles and tag those objects. At print time, you select the destination profile and at that time content is converted to CMYK. InDesign's PDF export will also do what you are asking, and it's easier there just because there is no distillation process. Everything stays PDF, in an ID PDF export, there is no PostScript.


Yes, that is what I find so sad with the whole notion of PDF/X-1a is that
all that's required to conform to the standard is the inclusion of *SOME*
ICC profile, does not matter what that profile is (could be PANTONE 150lpi
SWOP). I mean if folks routinely tag their PDF/X-1a with the same SWOP
profile that is in the ICC resistry, without any regards to the actual
printing conditions the jobs is intended for, what good is it? It means that
all CMYK jobs are intended for TR-001? That is a farce.

Pays to prepare your documents correctly. If you abuse the OutputIntent in PDF/X-1a, the real fallout is just that your soft proof won't look right. If you send the job to the proofer configured to simulate actual press conditions defined in the print job, it will still proof correctly. The OutputIntent is an implied but non-binding source profile.

The more I read about PDF/X-1a and the more I have the impression that the
inclusion of the OutputIntent was put in there to give some people good
conscience, knowing full well that, in practice, no one in the industry
bothers. The profile is just 'window dressing' and, in reality, all the
industry cares about is the assurance that all the data in the PDF is CMYK.

It's metadata. Those who care and can make effective use of it can do so. Those who aren't as sophisticated will ignored it, occasionally at their own peril. But for the most part PDF/X-1a is very safe by itself, the OutputIntent is just an extra piece of data that could have been optional, but I prefer it required. If the job printed wrong, and it was traced to the job only being soft proofed and approved on that basis, and then determined that it was because the OutputIntent was set incorrectly, there is an implicit liability by the party that created the PDF/X-1a document as they set the OutputIntent incorrectly. I do think it's good it's required, even if it gets abused.


Chris Murphy
Color Remedies (TM)
www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor
---------------------------------------------------------
Co-author "Real World Color Management"
Published by PeachPit Press (ISBN 0-201-77340-6)
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  • Follow-Ups:
    • Re: Re(6): embedded profiles in PDF/Postscript
      • From: Doug Walker <email@hidden>
    • Re: Re(6): embedded profiles in PDF/Postscript
      • From: Doug Walker <email@hidden>
    • Re: Re(6): embedded profiles in PDF/Postscript
      • From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
    • Re: Re(6): embedded profiles in PDF/Postscript
      • From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
References: 
 >Re: Re(6): embedded profiles in PDF/Postscript (From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>)

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