RE: Techkon SpectroDens
RE: Techkon SpectroDens
- Subject: RE: Techkon SpectroDens
- From: "Bob Byrnes" <email@hidden>
- Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 16:30:16 -0500
- Organization: Techkon USA
My name is Bob Byrnes and I work for Techkon USA. After reading Terry Wyse’s positive feedback on the SpectroDens (thank you Terry) I wanted to inform everyone that at Drupa Techkon released a product called SpectroCheck. SpectroCheck is a device that checks the color measurement accuracy of the Techkon SpectroDens to ensure that the device is maintaining the specified inter-instrument agreement of 0.01 D, 0.3 CIE ∆Eab and Repeatability of 0.1 D and 0.03 ∆Eab. The device consists of four colored ceramic tiles that use precise spectral reference values from the renowned BAM Institute (Federal Institute for Materials Research and Testing). The SpectroCheck also works with the Techkon SpectroDrive.
Best Regards,
Bob Byrnes
Techkon USA
P: (978) 777-1854
C: (603) 502-2508
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Techkon SpectroDens (Mike Eddington)
2. Re: Article on Photoshop CS4 and DeviceLink profile (Chris Cox)
3. Re: Techkon SpectroDens (Terence Wyse)
4. Techkon Spectrodens ( Johhny Iinthicum) (Rick Kortemeier)
5. Re: Article on Photoshop CS4 and DeviceLink profile (Graeme Gill)
6. Re: Techkon Spectrodens ( Johhny Iinthicum) (Marco Ugolini)
7. RE: Techkon SpectroDens (Roger Breton)
8. Re: Article on Photoshop CS4 and DeviceLink profile
(Kai-Uwe Behrmann)
9. Truelight Monitor Calibration (email@hidden)
10. measurement device trivia question (email@hidden)
11. Re: measurement device trivia question (Mike Eddington)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:58:27 -0500
From: Mike Eddington <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Techkon SpectroDens
To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List"
<email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
> I wonder. If we answer are you going to sue us ? Your email indicates
> you are seriously litigious.
>
> When I see things like that that obviously cannot be enforced, it
> makes me question other things about the person and the company they
> represent, regardless of the content of their message.
I'll vouch for Rick. He's taken more than one offlist ribbing for the
volumes of text his hitler-bot email server tags onto his outgoing,
but he needs all the help this list can provide. ;)
Mike
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:13:38 -0800
From: Chris Cox <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Article on Photoshop CS4 and DeviceLink profile
To: Koch Karl <email@hidden>, ColorSync List
<email@hidden>
Message-ID: <C55C3682.7B0E0Ìemail@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Karl;
Who did you check your facts with? Even the Photoshop CS4 documentation would have corrected most of your mistakes.
Other applications may tolerate profiles that don't work - that has historically been the case. Photoshop has to be more picky, because our users have rather high expectations of things working. We fixup some profiles with well known issues, but have to reject many because they are incomplete or corrupt. Yes, we find a LOT of those in our testing. I'm still amazed at how some software can use a truncated table for color conversion...
Multichannel mode does not have a document profile - it's just a collection of channels, previewed using spot channel logic. Yes, we always have the display color space - but multichannel does not have a document colorspace to convert from (because we can't generally color manage them, and haven't special cased the few 3 and 4 channel profiles that could be color managed).
Abstract profiles are normally just "in-place" conversions. Applying them as a filter during another conversion is, well, kind of a bizarre use. If you want to use abstract profiles for creative color transformations - then the way Photoshop does it makes more sense (as sort of an adjustment, or adjustment layer). If you want to use them for color science experiments, then the way Photoshop does it makes perfect sense. Only if you wanted to use abstract profiles are a pre-correction to an output profile does your description make sense - and then, why haven't you baked that into the output profile?
Again, the standards for destination profile specs in device link profiles is too new - we had no samples to test with (other than a few generated in house specifially for testing). We've tried releasing untested code in the past - and won't do it again. One thing you have to remember - we had this feature coded and finished almost two years ago. We've been busy with other things since then (like testing, and fixing bugs, dealing with compiler and OS vendors to fix their bugs, etc.). As much as I'd like to support standards as soon as they're completed - there is some delay in getting acceptance of new standards, working out problems in standards, getting testable samples based on new standard,s and testing interoperability. And users had a need for the features now, not when the standards were ready.
Yes, there are limitations to the new profile support in CS4 - but please explain the limitations correctly without accusing Adobe of incompetence or some other agenda. And if you don't understand why some things are the way they are - ASK.
Chris
On 12/3/08 7:02 AM, "Koch Karl" <email@hidden> wrote:
Chris,
Am 02.12.2008 um 20:22 schrieb Chris Cox:
Wow. Someone should have done some fact checking before sending that out.
I did quite some fact checking before sending this out and I can back all of my factual statements. My opinions, though, are subjective, as is the nature of opinions ;-)
Yes, there are a lot of corrupt multichannel profiles out there - mostly from older profile makers that didn't test interoperability. Adobe applications do check for profile validity before offering the profiles for use. So, not all of your installed multichannel profiles may show up in Photoshop - because they may not be valid profiles.
Strangely enough, these profiles work well in other applications (not only those which created them). ColorSync Profile Repair doesn4t mark them as invalid or corrupted, either. I admit that these were old v2.0.0 profiles, not really state of the art.
The PhotoYCC profile is interpreted correctly - but the result is YCC, displayed as a multichannel document.
I never doubted that the profile is interpreted correctly in the B2A direction, it4s just A2B that sucks or in other words, is not suppoerted.
There currently is no way to provide realtime previews or display of multichannel profiles with more than 4 channels - so Photoshop opted to get users the basic functionality requested (making separations) and use the existing multichannel mode. The preview during the conversion is limited by what is in the multichannel profile plus a few limitations of how Photoshop creates the preview (it could be improved, but it'll take a lot of work).
Accepted.
Um, yeah - most multichannel profiles don't have enough information to correctly convert back to the original data.
Agreed. You will never get back to the original data. But there are users out there who have the crazy wish to print proofs from multichannel data, so they need to go from multichannel to proofer CMYK (or RGB).
And you're in multichannel mode without any information about the destination colorspace.
This I don4t understand. As far as I thought I had understood the innards of Photoshop, you always have the information of your monitor color space which acts as a destination colorspace.
The author should spend some time reading about how multichannel mode in Photoshop works (it is not a new thing).
OK, so it4s the same old mechanism, just pimped with a multichannel profile conversion.
Abstract profiles convert through the PCS. The source and destination can easily be the same profile (like the current document profile).
Agreed - "can" but doesn4t necessarily have to, except in Photoshop 11 where the user doesn4t have the choice.
Abstract profiles are used to "change the look" -- that's what they're for.
I think I understood that much.
The author seems to think they have some other purpose, but does not explain what that purpose might be.
Maybe it4s a problem of not being a native English speaker. I thought I had made myself clear. And I asked some precise questions which you didn4t bother to answer:
"When you select a rendering intent, where is it applied? On the way from working space to PCS, on the way back, or in both directions? I haven4t found out yet. If you want to apply the abstract profile on the way from your working space to an output space, you need to transform another time - you lose flexibility and each transformation costs image quality."
Nothing was goofed up for device link profiles. The primary demand for them was CMYK->CMYK (for print), and RGB->RGB (for non-print folks). Adobe has a limited number of engineers, a limited number of testers, and a limited amount of time to develop and test features. Rather than delay support of device link profiles until time became available to test every possible combination of input and output color mode, Adobe focused on what was requested by the users to solve real world problems.
Also, yes, after a device link conversion document remains in the original colorspace, because currently devicelink profiles do not contain information about the destination profile so that Photoshop could assign the correct profile after applying the device link.
AFAIK it was Adobe who requested a new tag in ICC profiles (pseq) that provides exactly this information. So, why don4t you use the information for applying the correct profile after applying the device link WHEN it is there?
The ICC has recently approved standards to improve the situation, but there were no samples available to test that before Photoshop shipped.
Maybe you should have asked basICColor ;-) (this was not meant as advertising!)
The author seems to have drawn several bad conclusions from a severe lack of knowledge, and a failure to do background research on the topic. This article is worse than useless, it is seriously misleading.
I4m always eager to learn. Unfortunately your anwers to my article didn4t really enlighten me. There is no new information and nothing that would make me take anything back. I4m not quite as dumb as you seem to believe.
What magazine was this published in?
It4s not yet published, I wrote, I had written an article, not that I had had one published.
And was it correctly labeled as advertising for basICColor?
Because I mentioned, that there is a solution out there? That doesn4t have Adobe4s name on it? Being the CEO of basICColor GmbH, I take the liberty to mention solutions that are working, although they bear the basICColor brand.
The article was not about Adobe-bashing. I wanted to warn the Photoshop 11 users of some pitfalls when working with the "new" type of profiles. Especially the device link conversions are error-prone. Not every user out there will understand that she/he will have to assign a different profile after a device link conversion. Converting again (e.g. to a proofer space) without having done so will wreak havoc!
The multichannel support is only half-hearted and the abstract profile support is a pragmatical approach - at best.
Best regards,
Karl Koch
______________________________
basICColor GmbH
Maistra_e 18
82377 Penzberg - Germany
phone: +49-(0)8856-932505
fax: +49-(0)8856-932503
email: email@hidden <applewebdata://B9C78DB9-A913-4E15-A94F-0C3411B06B19/email@hidden>
http://www.basICColor.de
Managing Director: Karl Koch
Registered Office: Penzberg
Commercial Register: 172485, AG M|nchen
VAT No. DE814946213
______________________________
free profiles for standard printing conditions:
http://colormanagement.org <http://colormanagement.org/de/isoprofile.html>
______________________________
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 17:15:52 -0500
From: Terence Wyse <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Techkon SpectroDens
To: Rick Kortemeier <email@hidden>,
"'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List"
<email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
I had a loaner for a few months and it's a fine instrument. First hand-
held spectro that's come along that actually has me considering
trading my SpectroEye for the SpectroDens. Very fast, no moving parts,
nice UI. The clincher was the EXCELLENT software that is included FREE
OF CHARGE with the unit. With my SpectroEye, any software or options
of any worth they charge you for.
The ONLY thing that is keeping me from getting the unit (besides
cash!) is the fact that they don't have anything functionally
equivalent to the NetProfiler software...but then neither does anybody
else. NetProfiler is basically a SpectroEye-only option for remote
instrument re-certification. Too bad more vendors don't adopt this
concept. In the end, I'll probably get the SpectroDens but probably
keep the SpectroEye as my "reference" instrument.
My 3 nanometers worth.
Regards,
Terry Wyse
On Dec 3, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Rick Kortemeier wrote:
> We are an X-Rite shop head to toe here... but I was curious about
> opinions on the new Techkon Handheld with G7 functionality. Has
> anybody purchased one of these or had a chance to try one first
> hand. If so.... any thoughts? Thanks in advance for your submissions.
______________________________
Terence Wyse, WyseConsul
Color Management Consulting
G7 Certified Expert
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:23:59 -0500
From: Rick Kortemeier <email@hidden>
Subject: Techkon Spectrodens ( Johhny Iinthicum)
To: <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii"; delsp=yes
Well John,
Thanks for your response about the new spectro. As far as you
questioning what kind of person I am or the company I represent...
well... it does not even deserve a response. Edmund and I had a great
offline chuckle about what the attorney's chose to stick at the end of
our emails, which is of course, beyond my control. You on the other
hand represent one of the problems that some have on this list and
many of us are fed up with it. Whatever company you represent must be
terribly busy right now for you to have the time to sit down and put
to words such a well thought out response to such a simple question. I
think I speak for many when I say, if you have nothing to contribute
other than trying to offend... please do not bother. Most of us have
jobs to do and look to this list to help us with that. Thanks again
for 3 minutes of my life I will never get back. Have a good day.......
( here again will be the disclaimer you so enjoyed the first time:-)
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. It may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable laws. If you have received this communication in error, you should notify the sender immediately by reply email or fax. Please delete this message from your system and notify your systems manager. You are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. The views or opinions presented in this communication are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of this company. The reciepent should check this message and any attachments for the presence of viruses, as this company accepts no liability for any damage caused directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this communication.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 10:01:37 +1100
From: Graeme Gill <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Article on Photoshop CS4 and DeviceLink profile
To: ColorSync List <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Koch Karl wrote:
> Am 02.12.2008 um 20:22 schrieb Chris Cox:
>> And you're in multichannel mode without any information about the
>> destination colorspace.
> This I don4t understand. As far as I thought I had understood the
> innards of Photoshop, you always have the information of your monitor
> color space which acts as a destination colorspace.
It's not the monitor colorspace that is a mystery, it's the colorspace
the multichannel file is in that's a mystery. If a multichannel
profile only contains a B2A table (naughty! - not compliant with
ICC specs!), then it's possible to convert into that space, but
not out again, so it's not possible to display it correctly
on the monitor.
Graeme Gill.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:21:18 -0800
From: Marco Ugolini <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Techkon Spectrodens ( Johhny Iinthicum)
To: Rick Kortemeier <email@hidden>
Cc: ColorSync Users Mailing List <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <C55C627E.1863C%email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 12/3/08 2:23 PM, Rick Kortemeier wrote:
> I think I speak for many when I say, if you have nothing to contribute
> other than trying to offend... please do not bother.
You certainly speak for me, Rick. I also barely see the point in taking up
space on the list with comments that neither answer a question nor further
anyone's knowledge...like this message that I am sending! (Oh, the delicious
irony of it all...!)
Here's to all those bunches of 3 minutes of our lives that we will never get
back!
Marco
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:44:11 -0500
From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
Subject: RE: Techkon SpectroDens
To: 'Rick Kortemeier' <email@hidden>,
email@hidden
Message-ID: <00f801c955c2$922ae1b0$b680a510$@ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Rick,
In my experience with the SpectroDens, and it's G7 functionality, I have to
recognize that it is an instrument in a class of its own. It works very
well, no moving parts like the other posters have remarked. The only problem
I noticed, in all honesty, is the glossy finish on the LCD display, much
like the glossy finish on Apple's iMacs and the new 24" Cinema Display. I
have had a SpectroDens for almost a year now and only have praise for it.
It's worth mentioning that they have software that interfaces with Windows,
capture into Excel, and so on.
The SpectroDens G7 functionality, what they call "Gray Guide", is not
perfect but it's a tremendous help. It starts by measuring paper white, so
it knows what the a* and b* of the Gray Tone Aims are. Then, if you measure,
say a solid, it will know whether it's cyan, magenta, yellow, black. It also
recognizes the overprints, red, green and blue. Each time, it will report
the deltaE between the measurement and the specifications which you select
beforehand. It has GRACoL2006 and the two SWOP2006 in firmware. When
measuring the HR, HC and SC patches, it will report how far, in visual
density terms, the measurement is. Only for HR will it not only report the
delta visual density relative to the Gray Tone Aim but also the delta a*,
delta b* and delta L*. And, it will try to make predictions as to the
required correction like +0.07c -0.03m and 0.00y. I found these numbers not
be absolutes but indicative of the direction the press needs to go in order
to hit the aimpoints. That's why I find them helpful.
I remember the KBA G7 training in march 2006 when no one wanted to try the
SpectroDens -- we were all afraid to touch it. Boy! Were we morons. As much
as I like my SpectroEye and my 530, I like the SpectroDens even better now.
I also use the SpectroPlate and the SpectroDrive. What can I say? I like
their products.
Roger
> Gentlemen,
>
> We are an X-Rite shop head to toe here... but I was curious about
> opinions on the new Techkon Handheld with G7 functionality. Has
> anybody purchased one of these or had a chance to try one first hand.
> If so.... any thoughts? Thanks in advance for your submissions.
>
> This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity
> to which it is addressed. It may contain information that is
> privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable
> laws. If you have received this communication in error, you should
> notify the sender immediately by reply email or fax. Please delete
> this message from your system and notify your systems manager. You are
> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this communication is strictly prohibited. The views or opinions
> presented in this communication are solely those of the author and do
> not necessarily represent those of this company. The reciepent should
> check this message and any attachments for the presence of viruses, as
> this company accepts no liability for any damage caused directly or
> indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this communication.
>
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 10:06:21 +0100 (CET)
From: Kai-Uwe Behrmann <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Article on Photoshop CS4 and DeviceLink profile
To: colorsync user <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hiddena>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:02:48 +0100
> From: Koch Karl <email@hidden>
> "When you select a rendering intent, where is it applied? On the way
> from working space to PCS, on the way back, or in both directions? I
> haven?t found out yet. If you want to apply the abstract profile on
> the way from your working space to an output space, you need to
> transform another time ? you lose flexibility and each transformation
> costs image quality."
I'd say for a simple input to output colour space conversion the
A2B_rendering_intent -> B2A_rendering_intent tables would be selected by a
CMM. Correct? Whats the issue of deploying a following scheme(?):
A2B_rendering_intent -> A2B0_abstract -> B2A_rendering_intent
For a null abstract profile the result should be the same as for a direct
source to ouput rendering with the same intent.
In case the two rendering intents would be selectable separately, the
scheme would become the following (which I do not remember to have seen
anywhere, except for proofing):
A2B_rendering_intentA -> PCS
PCS -> B2A_rendering_intentB
For merging abstract profiles into editing to output device space
conversions I completely agree with you. Thats a good thing. E.g. any
application, which has on the fly "look" profile capabilities should have
this. But I do not see the relation to the rendering intent selection.
kind regards
Kai-Uwe Behrmann
--
developing for colour management
www.behrmann.name + www.oyranos.org
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:57:05 -0200
From: "email@hidden" <email@hidden>
Subject: Truelight Monitor Calibration
To: ColorSync <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed;
delsp=yes
Hi,
I see a reference this monitor calibration solution at Apple's Shake
product page:
http://www.apple.com/shake/2d3dcompositing.html
Is this a ICC aware solution?
Could someone familiar with it explain how it works?
Thanks, gariba
Atenciosamente,
Jorge gariba Batista.
GRB Tratamento de Imagem
Rua Gen Bento Martins, , n: 24 conj 702
Porto Alegre, RS, Brasil. CEP 90000-080
(51) 3061 1029.
On Dec 3, 2008, at 9:01 PM, Graeme Gill wrote:
> Koch Karl wrote:
>> Am 02.12.2008 um 20:22 schrieb Chris Cox:
>
>>> And you're in multichannel mode without any information about the
>>> destination colorspace.
>
>> This I don4t understand. As far as I thought I had understood the
>> innards of Photoshop, you always have the information of your
>> monitor color space which acts as a destination colorspace.
>
> It's not the monitor colorspace that is a mystery, it's the colorspace
> the multichannel file is in that's a mystery. If a multichannel
> profile only contains a B2A table (naughty! - not compliant with
> ICC specs!), then it's possible to convert into that space, but
> not out again, so it's not possible to display it correctly
> on the monitor.
>
> Graeme Gill.
> _______________________________________________
> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>
> This email sent to email@hidden
>
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:16:06 -0600
From: email@hidden
Subject: measurement device trivia question
To: email@hidden
Message-ID:
<email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Hi,
The old Spectrolino devices can be fitted with a D65 filter.
When using it with Measure Tool, I can specify D65 illumination.
I presume this is an appropriate combination.
The iOne Pro does NOT have a filter, and I haven't found info about the
appropriate Measure Tool settings.
Is this device luminant fixed?
If yes, should I be using the D50 or D65 setting within Measure Tool?
Thanks for any guidance you can provide.
Greg
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 14:28:24 -0500
From: Mike Eddington <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: measurement device trivia question
To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List"
<email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
> The iOne Pro does NOT have a filter, and I haven't found info about
> the
> appropriate Measure Tool settings.
> Is this device luminant fixed?
> If yes, should I be using the D50 or D65 setting within Measure Tool?
You'll likely want to use the D50 setting. The differences between the
D50 and D65 setting relate to the calculation of the reported Lab
values. Choosing D65 will give you different Lab values that will not
correlate well with the rest of the graphic arts world as it relates
to printing/proofing. There are obviously situations were one might
want to change the illuminant setting, but in general the settings are
D50 and a 2 degree observer angle are the default for graphic arts.
The actual illuminant in the iOne is fixed, and actually is neither
D50 or D65...more like illuminant A.
I would also guess that you would want to use the D50 illuminant
setting even with a D65 filter on the spectrolino, as I believe the
intention of the filter is to enhance the signal to noise ratio for
the blue region rather than shift all values toward a different
illuminant, but again, if you intend to use/compare measured Lab
values with the rest of us, unfiltered and D50/2 degree is the way to
go. (Mike flinches in anticipation of up coming filtration
arguments). ;)
Mike
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