Re: Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
Re: Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
- Subject: Re: Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
- From: Paul Sherfield <email@hidden>
- Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:45:42 +0100
- Thread-topic: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
Hi Tom
So after all the discussion on this area, the question to you is, do
companies such as Eizo and NEC have SDK's for the new X Rite display
profiling devices, and if not, when?
Regards
Paul Sherfield
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
New telephone number: 00 44 1442 207626
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standards
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> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 08:34:30 -0700 (PDT)
> To: "email@hidden" <email@hidden>
> Subject: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 8, Issue 186
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support (Tom Lianza)
> 2. Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support (MARK SEGAL)
> 3. Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support (Tom Lianza)
> 4. Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support (MARK SEGAL)
> 5. Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
> (Jan-Peter Homann)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 09:55:03 -0400
> From: Tom Lianza <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
> To: Ernst Dinkla <email@hidden>, Karl Koch
> <email@hidden>, email@hidden
> Message-ID: <CA73E377.AA6A%email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> To all,
>
> It's hard to respond to so many erroneous opinions at one time, but I will
> make some general comments.
>
> 1. OEM products. When an OEM purchases a product from us, it is their
> product. There may be manufacturing differences, there may be firmware
> differences. Most important, X-rite cannot make a change to the product
> without specific agreement with the OEM. We can, and often do, make changes
> in the retail line of products. OEMs make specific volume commitments and
> often invest a significant amount of R&D and supply chain cost to implement
> the product in their product line. They also service the product. Some
> display vendors put the calibration software in the display. They have
> every right to insist on absolute customization. When I designed the Sony
> Artisan hardware I had to use a completely different strategy for
> suppression of static because their standards exceeded the FCC and European
> standards of the time. We also had to re-engineer the cable so that the
> insulation could be physically consumed. This required a change in the
> production techniques of the cable and very specific testing for impurities.
> OEM's invest heavily in their products and they need to protect that
> investment. They are not screwing the consumer. Comments like that
> indicate a total ignorance of the position that OEM's are in.
>
> 2. The small developer- Independent developers are an important part of our
> business. The question is: who supports the hardware product? A developer
> like Graeme Gill "cracks" our products at "arm's length". In the US, this
> is completely legal and has been defended in court many times (the DOS BIOS
> is a good example of how this worked). He applies his technology to a
> product that was legally purchased through retail channels. What would be
> illegal would be to make copies of our software and sell it using the
> cracked technology or to ship our drivers, unlicensed, to the field. In the
> life a given hardware product, independent software developers will make
> many upgrades and not all of them will be free. We make money on hardware
> once, and that piece of hardware is an "enabler" for many other companies
> over the course of its lifetime.
>
> I believe that there will be a mechanism for independent developers to use
> the latest technology colorimeter, purchased through retail channels, but I
> need to confirm that. Understand that the latest technology products are
> significantly different than the earlier products and do require a certain
> amount of training to implement properly. It's not in anyone's best interest
> to open the technology to everyone who thinks they are a developer until we
> understand the support and training costs. Not everyone is a Karl or
> Graeme. Is it in the consumers best interests to have poor software
> implementations of new hardware technology? Should we make exceptions for
> certain developers who may have the knowledge and not allow other developers
> into the fray? How do we make sure that an iSV product doesn't kill a
> retail product by overlaying different dll's or packages? How do we cover
> release of information that is currently under application for patent? How
> do we inform ISV's of changes that are warranted by changes in operating
> systems. How do we justify the costs of system support to the ISV community
> given that we make money only on the sale of the hardware item? There is
> nothing nefarious here, it just takes time and resources which are not
> available at the moment.
>
> Third hand comments about internal corporate policy (which, by the way is
> probably covered by NDA) such as those from Mr Wagner, should not generate
> the frenzy of nonsense that we have seen on this list. Snarky and
> uninformed comments like those of Mr. Segal add nothing to a solution to the
> issues of ISV support. I hope that you all have a better understanding of
> the situation and we can end this mindless thread started with third hand
> information taken out of the context of reality.....
>
> Regards,
> Tom Lianza
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8/19/11 6:25 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <email@hidden> wrote:
>
>> On 08/19/2011 09:57 AM, Karl Koch wrote:
>>>
>>> *snip*
>>>
>>>> If the communication interface for the Dreamcolor versions could be
>>>> cracked
>>>> I
>>>> suppose that ccmxmake could adapt the filtering sufficiently for other
>>>> monitor
>>>> types. There may even be some experience on adaption with the NEC variety.
>>>
>>> <irony> I´m not quite sure, cracking software or communication interfaces
>>> is
>>> quite legal</irony>
>>> Looks like that´s what had happened in ccmxmake, bt it can well be that
>>> Argyll
>>> has permission to do so.
>>
>> Let me rephrase that to: "an alternative driver created for".
>>
>>> *snip*
>>>
>>>> The current policy is bad for consumers and is anticompetitive.
>>>
>>> I don´t think so! On the contrary: This policy (with which I don´t agree
>>> either,
>>> but it´s X-Rite´s decision and none of my business) will encourage
>>> competitors
>>> to develop, manufacture and sell new instruments without these restrictions.
>>> And
>>> thus we will have a competitive situation not only in the field of software,
>>> but
>>> also in hardware. This will break X-Rite´s monopoly – and they have begged
>>> for
>>> it ;-)
>>
>> My thoughts too. Too much good CM software around that needs compatible
>> hardware. What came to the surface in hard- and software so far from
>> the GM + M + X merges is not convincing. Including more restrictions on
>> its use + applying absurd new restrictions on the software it had to
>> replace. What looked like a potential monopolist some years ago could be
>> a niche player soon enough with this policy. A policy that Apple might
>> exploit successfully but not X-rite.
>>
>> A redesign of for example the SpectroCam could have a bright future,
>> bundling it with a nice colorimeter for monitor calibration would
>> overcome the US patent issue too. Add something like Argyll's ccmxmake
>> and that bundle delivers more than the sum of two devices. Barbieri is
>> still alive, the Spyder colorimeters improved a lot and with a Chinese
>> CM software company running now it would be surprising if there would
>> not appear some hardware from that part of the world too.
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying attachments may
> contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected
> from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if
> this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the
> sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and any attachments. Any
> dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents of this message by
> anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. The company
> accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this
> email or any attachments.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 07:19:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
> To: Tom Lianza <email@hidden>, Ernst Dinkla
> <email@hidden>, Karl Koch <email@hidden>,
> "email@hidden" <email@hidden>
> Message-ID:
> <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> "Reality" is perceived by different people in different ways depending on,
> amongst other things, at which end of the spectrum they happen to sit, what
> their interests are, and how these matters affect them personally. While some
> peoples' reality is other peoples' snark, we'll see over time which
> perspective prevails.And if there is really critical misinformation out here,
> maybe the company needs to do more to correct that. Over the years of
> corporate history, the demise of bigger fish than XRite started when they just
> couldn't truly and seriously see beyond themselves and their self-perceived
> immediate interests.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Tom Lianza <email@hidden>
> To: Ernst Dinkla <email@hidden>; Karl Koch <email@hidden>;
> email@hidden
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 9:55:03 AM
> Subject: Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
>
> To all,
>
> It's hard to respond to so many erroneous opinions at one time, but I will
> make some general comments.
>
> 1. OEM products. When an OEM purchases a product from us, it is their
> product. There may be manufacturing differences, there may be firmware
> differences. Most important, X-rite cannot make a change to the product
> without specific agreement with the OEM. We can, and often do, make changes
> in the retail line of products. OEMs make specific volume commitments and
> often invest a significant amount of R&D and supply chain cost to implement
> the product in their product line. They also service the product. Some
> display vendors put the calibration software in the display. They have
> every right to insist on absolute customization. When I designed the Sony
> Artisan hardware I had to use a completely different strategy for
> suppression of static because their standards exceeded the FCC and European
> standards of the time. We also had to re-engineer the cable so that the
> insulation could be physically consumed. This required a change in the
> production techniques of the cable and very specific testing for impurities.
> OEM's invest heavily in their products and they need to protect that
> investment. They are not screwing the consumer. Comments like that
> indicate a total ignorance of the position that OEM's are in.
>
> 2. The small developer- Independent developers are an important part of our
> business. The question is: who supports the hardware product? A developer
> like Graeme Gill "cracks" our products at "arm's length". In the US, this
> is completely legal and has been defended in court many times (the DOS BIOS
> is a good example of how this worked). He applies his technology to a
> product that was legally purchased through retail channels. What would be
> illegal would be to make copies of our software and sell it using the
> cracked technology or to ship our drivers, unlicensed, to the field. In the
> life a given hardware product, independent software developers will make
> many upgrades and not all of them will be free. We make money on hardware
> once, and that piece of hardware is an "enabler" for many other companies
> over the course of its lifetime.
>
> I believe that there will be a mechanism for independent developers to use
> the latest technology colorimeter, purchased through retail channels, but I
> need to confirm that. Understand that the latest technology products are
> significantly different than the earlier products and do require a certain
> amount of training to implement properly. It's not in anyone's best interest
> to open the technology to everyone who thinks they are a developer until we
> understand the support and training costs. Not everyone is a Karl or
> Graeme. Is it in the consumers best interests to have poor software
> implementations of new hardware technology? Should we make exceptions for
> certain developers who may have the knowledge and not allow other developers
> into the fray? How do we make sure that an iSV product doesn't kill a
> retail product by overlaying different dll's or packages? How do we cover
> release of information that is currently under application for patent? How
> do we inform ISV's of changes that are warranted by changes in operating
> systems. How do we justify the costs of system support to the ISV community
> given that we make money only on the sale of the hardware item? There is
> nothing nefarious here, it just takes time and resources which are not
> available at the moment.
>
> Third hand comments about internal corporate policy (which, by the way is
> probably covered by NDA) such as those from Mr Wagner, should not generate
> the frenzy of nonsense that we have seen on this list. Snarky and
> uninformed comments like those of Mr. Segal add nothing to a solution to the
> issues of ISV support. I hope that you all have a better understanding of
> the situation and we can end this mindless thread started with third hand
> information taken out of the context of reality.....
>
> Regards,
> Tom Lianza
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8/19/11 6:25 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <email@hidden> wrote:
>
>> On 08/19/2011 09:57 AM, Karl Koch wrote:
>>>
>>> *snip*
>>>
>>>> If the communication interface for the Dreamcolor versions could be
>>>> cracked
>>>> I
>>>> suppose that ccmxmake could adapt the filtering sufficiently for other
>>>> monitor
>>>> types. There may even be some experience on adaption with the NEC
>>>> variety.
>>>
>>> <irony> I´m not quite sure, cracking software or communication interfaces
>>> is
>>> quite legal</irony>
>>> Looks like that´s what had happened in ccmxmake, bt it can well be that
>>> Argyll
>>> has permission to do so.
>>
>> Let me rephrase that to: "an alternative driver created for".
>>
>>> *snip*
>>>
>>>> The current policy is bad for consumers and is anticompetitive.
>>>
>>> I don´t think so! On the contrary: This policy (with which I don´t agree
>>> either,
>>> but it´s X-Rite´s decision and none of my business) will encourage
>>> competitors
>>> to develop, manufacture and sell new instruments without these restrictions.
>>> And
>>> thus we will have a competitive situation not only in the field of software,
>>> but
>>> also in hardware. This will break X-Rite´s monopoly – and they have begged
>>> for
>>> it ;-)
>>
>> My thoughts too. Too much good CM software around that needs compatible
>> hardware. What came to the surface in hard- and software so far from
>> the GM + M + X merges is not convincing. Including more restrictions on
>> its use + applying absurd new restrictions on the software it had to
>> replace. What looked like a potential monopolist some years ago could be
>> a niche player soon enough with this policy. A policy that Apple might
>> exploit successfully but not X-rite.
>>
>> A redesign of for example the SpectroCam could have a bright future,
>> bundling it with a nice colorimeter for monitor calibration would
>> overcome the US patent issue too. Add something like Argyll's ccmxmake
>> and that bundle delivers more than the sum of two devices. Barbieri is
>> still alive, the Spyder colorimeters improved a lot and with a Chinese
>> CM software company running now it would be surprising if there would
>> not appear some hardware from that part of the world too.
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying attachments may
> contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected
> from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if
> this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the
> sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and any attachments. Any
> dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents of this message by
> anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. The company
> accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this
> email or any attachments.
> _______________________________________________
> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>
> This email sent to email@hidden
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 10:54:25 -0400
> From: Tom Lianza <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
> To: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>, Ernst Dinkla
> <email@hidden>, Karl Koch <email@hidden>,
> "email@hidden" <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <CA73F161.AA74%email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
> Just so there is no misunderstanding here: What got published was second or
> third hand information that was possibly released in violation of an NDA.
>> From this source, a perception developed that we, X-rite, were somehow
> trying to limit the product for our own uses, which was completely untrue.
>> From this, we see a demand to contact your X-rite representative and raise a
> great flag of rebellion. I tried to intelligently point out to those who
> can read, that there are significant issues which take time and resources
> to finalize, that are not available at the moment. The new technology is
> not trivial to implement. We also have two separate implementation paths,
> one for OEM’s and another for Developers, both internal and external. The
> documentation for the second path was recently completed but to be frank, it
> is hard for me to follow and there is steep learning curve because of all
> the issues I posed earlier in the post. The policy that is mentioned at the
> release of the product is not necessarily a policy that covers the life of
> the product. X-rite’s “self-perceived immediate interests” are making sure
> that we don’t get swamped by developer issues that overwhelm the technical
> support team which will then lead to poor implementations in the field.
>
> Now with my comment about “uninformed”: the filter issue you referred to
> was a GLASS filter not plastic filter issue and it was cured many months
> ago.
>
> Regards,
> Tom
>
>
>
>
> On 8/19/11 10:19 AM, "MARK SEGAL" <email@hidden> wrote:
>
>> "Reality" is perceived by different people in different ways depending on,
>> amongst other things, at which end of the spectrum they happen to sit, what
>> their interests are, and how these matters affect them personally. While some
>> peoples' reality is other peoples' snark, we'll see over time which
>> perspective prevails. And if there is really critical misinformation out
>> here,
>> maybe the company needs to do more to correct that. Over the years of
>> corporate history, the demise of bigger fish than XRite started when they
>> just
>> couldn't truly and seriously see beyond themselves and their self-perceived
>> immediate interests.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> From: Tom Lianza <email@hidden>
>> To: Ernst Dinkla <email@hidden>; Karl Koch <email@hidden>;
>> email@hidden
>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 9:55:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
>>
>> To all,
>>
>> It's hard to respond to so many erroneous opinions at one time, but I will
>> make some general comments.
>>
>> 1. OEM products. When an OEM purchases a product from us, it is their
>> product. There may be manufacturing differences, there may be firmware
>> differences. Most important, X-rite cannot make a change to the product
>> without specific agreement with the OEM. We can, and often do, make changes
>> in the retail line of products. OEMs make specific volume commitments and
>> often invest a significant amount of R&D and supply chain cost to implement
>> the product in their product line. They also service the product. Some
>> display vendors put the calibration software in the display. They have
>> every right to insist on absolute customization. When I designed the Sony
>> Artisan hardware I had to use a completely different strategy for
>> suppression of static because their standards exceeded the FCC and European
>> standards of the time. We also had to re-engineer the cable so that the
>> insulation could be physically consumed. This required a change in the
>> production techniques of the cable and very specific testing for impurities.
>> OEM's invest heavily in their products and they need to protect that
>> investment. They are not screwing the consumer. Comments like that
>> indicate a total ignorance of the position that OEM's are in.
>>
>> 2. The small developer- Independent developers are an important part of our
>> business. The question is: who supports the hardware product? A developer
>> like Graeme Gill "cracks" our products at "arm's length". In the US, this
>> is completely legal and has been defended in court many times (the DOS BIOS
>> is a good example of how this worked). He applies his technology to a
>> product that was legally purchased through retail channels. What would be
>> illegal would be to make copies of our software and sell it using the
>> cracked technology or to ship our drivers, unlicensed, to the field. In the
>> life a given hardware product, independent software developers will make
>> many upgrades and not all of them will be free. We make money on hardware
>> once, and that piece of hardware is an "enabler" for many other companies
>> over the course of its lifetime.
>>
>> I believe that there will be a mechanism for independent developers to use
>> the latest technology colorimeter, purchased through retail channels, but I
>> need to confirm that. Understand that the latest technology products are
>> significantly different than the earlier products and do require a certain
>> amount of training to implement properly. It's not in anyone's best interest
>> to open the technology to everyone who thinks they are a developer until we
>> understand the support and training costs. Not everyone is a Karl or
>> Graeme. Is it in the consumers best interests to have poor software
>> implementations of new hardware technology? Should we make exceptions for
>> certain developers who may have the knowledge and not allow other developers
>> into the fray? How do we make sure that an iSV product doesn't kill a
>> retail product by overlaying different dll's or packages? How do we cover
>> release of information that is currently under application for patent? How
>> do we inform ISV's of changes that are warranted by changes in operating
>> systems. How do we justify the costs of system support to the ISV community
>> given that we make money only on the sale of the hardware item? There is
>> nothing nefarious here, it just takes time and resources which are not
>> available at the moment.
>>
>> Third hand comments about internal corporate policy (which, by the way is
>> probably covered by NDA) such as those from Mr Wagner, should not generate
>> the frenzy of nonsense that we have seen on this list. Snarky and
>> uninformed comments like those of Mr. Segal add nothing to a solution to the
>> issues of ISV support. I hope that you all have a better understanding of
>> the situation and we can end this mindless thread started with third hand
>> information taken out of the context of reality.....
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tom Lianza
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/19/11 6:25 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <email@hidden> wrote:
>>
>>>> On 08/19/2011 09:57 AM, Karl Koch wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *snip*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the communication interface for the Dreamcolor versions could be
>>>>> cracked
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> suppose that ccmxmake could adapt the filtering sufficiently for other
>>>>>>>> monitor
>>>>>>>> types. There may even be some experience on adaption with the NEC
>>>>> variety.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <irony> I´m not quite sure, cracking software or communication
>>>> interfaces is
>>>>>> quite legal</irony>
>>>>>> Looks like that´s what had happened in ccmxmake, bt it can well be that
>>>>>> Argyll
>>>>>> has permission to do so.
>>>>
>>>> Let me rephrase that to: "an alternative driver created for".
>>>>
>>>>>> *snip*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The current policy is bad for consumers and is anticompetitive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don´t think so! On the contrary: This policy (with which I don´t agree
>>>>>> either,
>>>>>> but it´s X-Rite´s decision and none of my business) will encourage
>>>>>> competitors
>>>>>> to develop, manufacture and sell new instruments without these
>>>> restrictions.
>>>>>> And
>>>>>> thus we will have a competitive situation not only in the field of
>>>> software,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> also in hardware. This will break X-Rite´s monopoly – and they have
>>>> begged
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> it ;-)
>>>>
>>>> My thoughts too. Too much good CM software around that needs compatible
>>>> hardware. What came to the surface in hard- and software so far from
>>>> the GM + M + X merges is not convincing. Including more restrictions on
>>>> its use + applying absurd new restrictions on the software it had to
>>>> replace. What looked like a potential monopolist some years ago could be
>>>> a niche player soon enough with this policy. A policy that Apple might
>>>> exploit successfully but not X-rite.
>>>>
>>>> A redesign of for example the SpectroCam could have a bright future,
>>>> bundling it with a nice colorimeter for monitor calibration would
>>>> overcome the US patent issue too. Add something like Argyll's ccmxmake
>>>> and that bundle delivers more than the sum of two devices. Barbieri is
>>>> still alive, the Spyder colorimeters improved a lot and with a Chinese
>>>> CM software company running now it would be surprising if there would
>>>> not appear some hardware from that part of the world too.
>>
>>
>> The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying attachments may
>> contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected
>> from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if
>> this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the
>> sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and any attachments. Any
>> dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents of this message by
>> anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. The company
>> accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this
>> email or any attachments.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>
>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying attachments may
> contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected
> from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if
> this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the
> sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and any attachments. Any
> dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents of this message by
> anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. The company
> accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this
> email or any attachments.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 08:01:57 -0700 (PDT)
> From: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
> To: Tom Lianza <email@hidden>, Ernst Dinkla
> <email@hidden>, Karl Koch <email@hidden>,
> "email@hidden" <email@hidden>
> Message-ID:
> <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Fine Tom, let there be peace, and we will see over time how it all shakes out
> - BTW, I did not make the comment about plastic filters, though I am aware it
> was an issue.
>
> Meanwhile a malicious hack was made a few minutes ago to remove me from this
> List, evidence of which was a notice I received asking to confirm MY request
> to be delisted. I have no idea who generated that nonsense, so I have asked
> Apple to investigate it and I have confirmed that I had no intention of
> removing myself from the List. I mention this here so that readers know there
> are some out there who just can't play by the rules and confine their
> behaviour to discussion, whether the ideas discussed are in their minds
> correct or not so correct.
>
> Â
> Mark
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Tom Lianza <email@hidden>
> To: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>; Ernst Dinkla <email@hidden>;
> Karl Koch <email@hidden>; "email@hidden"
> <email@hidden>
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:54:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
>
>
> Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support Just so there is no
> misunderstanding here: Â What got published was second or third hand
> information that was possibly released in violation of an NDA. Â From this
> source, a perception developed that we, X-rite, were  somehow trying to limit
> the product for our own uses, which was completely untrue. Â From this, we see
> a demand to contact your X-rite representative and raise a great flag of
> rebellion. Â Â I tried to intelligently point out to those who can read, that
> there are significant issues which take time and resources  to finalize, that
> are not available at the moment. Â The new technology is not trivial to
> implement. Â We also have two separate implementation paths, one for OEMâ•˙s
> and another for Developers, both internal and external. Â The documentation
> for the second path was recently completed but to be frank, it is hard for me
> to follow and there is steep learning curve because of all the
> issues I posed earlier in the post. Â The policy that is mentioned at the
> release of the product is not necessarily a policy that covers the life of the
> product.  X-riteâ•˙s ╲self-perceived immediate interests╡ are making sure
> that we donâ•˙t get swamped by developer issues that overwhelm the technical
> support team which will then lead to poor implementations in the field. Â
>
> Now with my comment about ╲uninformed╡:  the filter issue you referred to
> was a GLASS filter not plastic filter issue and it was cured many months ago.
> Â
>
> Regards,
> Tom
>
>
>
>
> On 8/19/11 10:19 AM, "MARK SEGAL" <email@hidden> wrote:
>
>
> "Reality" is perceived by different people in different ways depending on,
> amongst other things, at which end of the spectrum they happen to sit, what
> their interests are, and how these matters affect them personally. While some
> peoples' reality is other peoples' snark, we'll see over time which
> perspective prevails. And if there is really critical misinformation out here,
> maybe the company needs to do more to correct that. Over the years of
> corporate history, the demise of bigger fish than XRite started when they just
> couldn't truly and seriously see beyond themselves and their self-perceived
> immediate interests.
>> Â
>> Mark
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From:Tom Lianza <email@hidden>
>> To: Ernst Dinkla <email@hidden>; Karl Koch <email@hidden>;
>> email@hidden
>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 9:55:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
>>
>> To all,
>>
>> It's hard to respond to so many erroneous opinions at one time, but I will
>> make some general comments.
>>
>> 1. OEM products. Â When an OEM purchases a product from us, it is their
>> product. Â There may be manufacturing differences, there may be firmware
>> differences. Â Most important, X-rite cannot make a change to the product
>> without specific agreement with the OEM. Â We can, and often do, make changes
>> in the retail line of products. Â OEMs make specific volume commitments and
>> often invest a significant amount of R&D and supply chain cost to implement
>> the product in their product line. Â They also service the product. Â Some
>> display vendors put the calibration software in the display. Â They have
>> every right to insist on absolute customization. When I designed the Sony
>> Artisan hardware I had to use a completely different strategy for
>> suppression of static because their standards exceeded the FCC and European
>> standards of the time. Â We also had to re-engineer the cable so that the
>> insulation could be physically consumed. Â This required a change in the
>> production techniques of the cable and very specific testing for impurities.
>> OEM's invest heavily in their products and they need to protect that
>> investment. Â They are not screwing the consumer. Â Comments like that
>> indicate a total ignorance of the position that OEM's are in.
>>
>> 2. The small developer- Independent developers are an important part of our
>> business. Â The question is: who supports the hardware product? A developer
>> like Graeme Gill "cracks" our products at "arm's length". Â In the US, this
>> is completely legal and has been defended in court many times (the DOS BIOS
>> is a good example of how this worked). Â He applies his technology to a
>> product that was legally purchased through retail channels. Â What would be
>> illegal would be to make copies of our software and sell it using the
>> cracked technology or to ship our drivers, unlicensed, to the field. In the
>> life a given hardware product, independent software developers will make
>> many upgrades and not all of them will be free. Â We make money on hardware
>> once, and that piece of hardware is an "enabler" for many other companies
>> over the course of its lifetime.
>>
>> I believe that there  will be a mechanism for independent developers to use
>> the latest technology colorimeter, purchased through retail channels, but I
>> need to confirm that. Â Understand that the latest technology products are
>> significantly different than the earlier products and do require a certain
>> amount of training to implement properly. It's not in anyone's best interest
>> to open the technology to everyone who thinks they are a developer until we
>> understand the support and training costs. Â Not everyone is a Karl or
>> Graeme. Â Is it in the consumers best interests to have poor software
>> implementations of new hardware technology? Â Should we make exceptions for
>> certain developers who may have the knowledge and not allow other developers
>> into the fray? Â How do we make sure that an iSV product doesn't kill a
>> retail product by overlaying different dll's or packages? Â Â How do we cover
>> release of information that is currently under application for patent? Â How
>> do we inform ISV's of changes that are warranted by changes in operating
>> systems. Â How do we justify the costs of system support to the ISV community
>> given that we make money only on the sale of the hardware item? There is
>> nothing nefarious here, it just takes time and resources which are not
>> available at the moment.
>>
>> Third hand comments about internal corporate policy (which, by the way is
>> probably covered by NDA) Â such as those from Mr Wagner, should not generate
>> the frenzy of nonsense that we have seen on this list. Â Snarky and
>> uninformed comments like those of Mr. Segal add nothing to a solution to the
>> issues of ISV support. I hope that you all have a better understanding of
>> the situation and we can end this mindless thread started with third hand
>> information taken out of the context of reality.....
>>
>> Â Regards,
>> Tom Lianza
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Â Â
>>
>>
>> On 8/19/11 6:25 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <email@hidden> wrote:
>>
>>> On 08/19/2011 09:57 AM, Karl Koch wrote:
>>>>
>>>> *snip*
>>>>
>>>>> Â If the communication interface for the Dreamcolor versions could be
>>>>> cracked
>>>>> I
>>>>> Â suppose that ccmxmake could adapt the filtering sufficiently for other
>>>>> monitor
>>>>> Â types. There may even be some experience on adaption with the NEC
>>>>> variety.
>>>>
>>>> <irony>  I´m not quite sure, cracking software or communication
>>>> interfaces is
>>>> quite legal</irony>
>>>> Looks like that´s what had happened in ccmxmake, bt it can well be that
>>>> Argyll
>>>> has permission to do so.
>>>
>>> Let me rephrase that to: "an alternative driver created for".
>>>
>>>> *snip*
>>>>
>>>>> Â The current policy is bad for consumers and is anticompetitive.
>>>>
>>>> I don´t think so! On the contrary: This policy (with which I don´t agree
>>>> either,
>>>> but it´s X-Rite´s decision and none of my business) will encourage
>>>> competitors
>>>> to develop, manufacture and sell new instruments without these
>>>> restrictions.
>>>> And
>>>> thus we will have a competitive situation not only in the field of
>>>> software,
>>>> but
>>>> also in hardware. This will break X-Rite´s monopoly ╄ and they have
>>>> begged
>>>> for
>>>> it ;-)
>>>
>>> My thoughts too. Too much good CM software around that needs compatible
>>> hardware. What  came to the surface in hard- and software so far from
>>> the GM + M + X merges is not convincing. Including more restrictions on
>>> its use + applying absurd new restrictions on the software it had to
>>> replace. What looked like a potential monopolist some years ago could be
>>> a niche player soon enough with this policy. A policy that Apple might
>>> exploit successfully but not X-rite.
>>>
>>> A redesign of for example the SpectroCam could have a bright future,
>>> bundling it with a nice colorimeter for monitor calibration would
>>> overcome the US patent issue too. Add something like Argyll's ccmxmake
>>> and that bundle delivers more than the sum of two devices. Barbieri is
>>> still alive, the Spyder colorimeters improved a lot and with a Chinese
>>> CM software company running now it would be surprising if there would
>>> not appear some hardware from that part of the world too.
>>
>>
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> The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying attachments may
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:32:27 +0200
> From: Jan-Peter Homann <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
> To: email@hidden, Tom Lianza <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hello Tom,
> Thanks for replying fast and detailed to the list. I´m currently talking
> with different developers and I have the impression, that X-Rite made a
> big change in the licensing policy from i1 Pro to i1 Display Pro.
>
> Some developers I have talked with, stated that I should not publish
> details about our talks.
> But the current impression I have, is that much less developers will
> support the i1 Display Pro compared to the i1 Pro.
>
> And this is not only about small developers.
>
> I asked an representative from an important japanese display vendorabout
> support for i1 Display Pro in their own display calibration solution.
>
> He stated, that he can currently can´t state if and when they will
> support the i1 Display Pro and that I know the discussion at the
> colorsync mailinglist....
>
>
> Regards
> Jan-Peter Homann
>
>
>
> --
> ---------- Please note the new adress --------------
>
> homann colormanagement --------- fon +49 30 611 075 18
> Jan-Peter Homann ------------ mobile +49 171 54 70 358
> Cotheniusstr. 3 -------- http://www.colormanagement.de
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>
>
>
>
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