AW: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 14, Issue 36
AW: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 14, Issue 36
- Subject: AW: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 14, Issue 36
- From: Juergen Seitz <email@hidden>
- Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 17:56:27 +0000
- Thread-topic: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 14, Issue 36
Hi Martin,
The "issue" with F52 is the papertint.
With F52 it is the first time that we are handling a reference characterization
data set which is as far as -10b* from neutral.
In fact, this papertint reflects quite well what we get from the many uncoated
production substrates and prints, so this standard, describing a specific
offset printing condition is really good... but:
The issue is to be found in the typical handling of a white point in the ICC
color workflow.
The complete greybalance tips over to this very bluish paper tint and then the
CMY-balance gets "out of order" to compensate accordingly.
Maybe one of the ICC profiling solutions delivers some bette interpretation
with the perceptual intent?
With our attempt to keep a most consistent color appearance possible, we have
developed our own gamut mapping.
please find a little Lab-tif file showing a FOGRA39 to FOGRA52 conversion here:
https://owncloud.gmgcolor.com/owncloud/index.php/s/OdMOCwwMz1PcQv8
If you open this in Photoshop, you can compare the image on the different
Layers and you will see what a typical ICC conversion is doing, when you
convert from F39 to F52, or what a GMG- DL-profile is doing.
Our profiles can be used either in our ColorServer application or within our
Photoshop-Plugin.
Kind regards
Juergen
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Contents of Colorsync-users digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Roger Breton)
2. RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Roger Breton)
3. RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Roger Breton)
4. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Martin Orpen)
5. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Graeme Gill)
6. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Martin Orpen)
7. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Graeme Gill)
8. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Martin Orpen)
9. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Dan Bergstrom)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 15:31:40 -0400
From: "Roger Breton" <email@hidden>
To: "'Martin Orpen'" <email@hidden>,
"''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'"
<email@hidden>
Subject: RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
Message-ID: <7858301d328d9$19748fc0$4c5daf40$@videotron.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
How's the Perceptual Intent?
/ Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Colorsync-users
[mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden] On Behalf
Of Martin Orpen
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 1:04 PM
To: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
> On 4 Sep 2017, at 19:27, Martin Orpen <email@hidden> wrote:
>
> I’ve downloaded it and it works very well (and with the yellow as I’d expect
> from the 52 data).
Having taken a closer look, BasICColor Print is also producing poor relative
intent separations from the 52 data.
The neutral rendering is just as questionable as i1Profiler’s — the only
difference being that X-Rite’s engine maintains the hideous blue blacks and
BasICColor neutralises it.
The magenta plummets by 30% between L31 & L28, while yellow climbs by 20% and
cyan drops 6%.
I’ve never seen results this bad from any other data set.
It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before repro
houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles published by
the ECI.
--
Martin Orpen
Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:11:36 -0400
From: "Roger Breton" <email@hidden>
To: "'Martin Orpen'" <email@hidden>,
"''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'"
<email@hidden>
Subject: RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
Message-ID: <78c9a01d328de$ae8419a0$0b8c4ce0$@videotron.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Martin wrote :
> It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before
> repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles
> published by the ECI.
Doesn't the ECI site offers some kind of "standard" Fogra52 ICC profile?
I suppose you long tried that option.
/ Roger
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:28:38 -0400
From: "Roger Breton" <email@hidden>
To: "''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'"
<email@hidden>
Subject: RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
Message-ID: <78f8f01d328e1$0e8869d0$2b993d70$@videotron.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Oops! Misread what Martin wrote....
What about using the same "tools" used by the ECI to generate their generic ICC
profile?
/ Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Colorsync-users
[mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden] On Behalf
Of Roger Breton
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 4:12 PM
To: 'Martin Orpen' <email@hidden>;
''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <email@hidden>
Subject: RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
Martin wrote :
> It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before
> repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles
> published by the ECI.
Doesn't the ECI site offers some kind of "standard" Fogra52 ICC profile?
I suppose you long tried that option.
/ Roger
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 21:39:15 +0100
From: Martin Orpen <email@hidden>
To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List"
<email@hidden>
Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> On 8 Sep 2017, at 20:31, Roger Breton <email@hidden> wrote:
>
> How's the Perceptual Intent?
Smooth, but the blacks still don’t match.
And, as the aim here is to generate profiles for black & white or critical
neutral reproduction in CMYK, we don’t really need any proprietary perceptual
voodoo.
We need blacks that match.
>> It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before
>> repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles
>> published by the ECI.
>
> Doesn't the ECI site offers some kind of "standard" Fogra52 ICC profile?
> I suppose you long tried that option.
Yep, and that’s where the problem is.
PSO Uncoated and whatever number of variants you want to produce yourself from
the 47 data yield images that match *fairly* well.
PSO Uncoated v3 and your custom ICC profiles made from the 52 data yield images
that don’t match.
--
Martin Orpen
Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 09:08:04 +0200
From: Graeme Gill <email@hidden>
To: ColorSync <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Martin Orpen wrote:
> The Fogra 52 data produces neutrals composed of CMK and zero Y in both
> i1Profiler and Argyll.
I'm not seeing that (at least with my current code):
colprof -v -qm -kx fogra52
icclu -fb -ia fogra52.icc
100.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.007017 0.000764 0.081098 0.000000
[CMYK](clip)
50.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.082952 0.039821 0.172167 0.656606 [CMYK]
40.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.195334 0.103255 0.268755 0.778196 [CMYK]
30.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.704504 0.399554 0.299435 0.917631 [CMYK]
20.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.998257 0.923926 0.930881 0.996716 [CMYK]
10.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.994710 0.972349 0.899008 0.998990 [CMYK]
0.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.983620 1.000000 0.915429 1.000000 [CMYK]
colprof -v -qm -kz fogra52
icclu -fb -ia fogra52.icc
100.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.007017 0.000764 0.081098 0.000000 [CMYK](clip)
50.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.606688 0.510562 0.654812 0.000731 [CMYK]
40.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.695956 0.650859 0.853761 0.179810 [CMYK]
30.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.791740 0.543053 0.444419 0.844733 [CMYK]
20.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.998257 0.923926 0.930881 0.996716 [CMYK]
10.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.994710 0.972349 0.899008 0.998990 [CMYK]
0.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.983620 1.000000 0.915429 1.000000 [CMYK]
what exactly are you looking for ?
Cheers,
Graeme Gill.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 12:15:53 +0100
From: Martin Orpen <email@hidden>
To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List"
<email@hidden>
Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> On 9 Sep 2017, at 08:08, Graeme Gill <email@hidden> wrote:
>
> colprof -v -qm -kz fogra52
>
> icclu -fb -ia fogra52.icc
> 100.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.007017 0.000764 0.081098 0.000000
> [CMYK](clip)
> 50.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.606688 0.510562 0.654812 0.000731
> [CMYK]
> 40.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.695956 0.650859 0.853761 0.179810
> [CMYK]
> 30.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.791740 0.543053 0.444419 0.844733
> [CMYK]
> 20.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.998257 0.923926 0.930881 0.996716
> [CMYK]
> 10.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.994710 0.972349 0.899008 0.998990 [CMYK]
> 0.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.983620 1.000000 0.915429 1.000000
> [CMYK]
>
> what exactly are you looking for ?
Yellow in separations with increased K generation :)
In profiles I made using Argyll in March this year I was getting this from -kx
300 TAC
60.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.042220 0.021155 0.138908 0.493434
[CMYK]
50.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.082952 0.039821 0.172168 0.656604
[CMYK]
30.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.703806 0.399562 0.299396 0.917587
[CMYK]
20.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.910211 0.696531 0.426875 0.996719
[CMYK]
10.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.932469 0.806219 0.293490 0.998988
[CMYK]
0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 1.000000 0.864791 0.135001 1.000000
[CMYK]
But, more importantly, this is what you actually get from relative conversions:
50.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.103877 0.046326 0.000000 0.712330
[CMYK]
30.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 1.000000 0.531888 0.077466 0.945821
[CMYK]
0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 1.000000 0.864791 0.135001 1.000000
[CMYK]
And perceptual has NO yellow whatsoever!
50.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.078745 0.037454 0.000000 0.635533
[CMYK]
30.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.265519 0.116809 0.000000 0.776893
[CMYK]
0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 1.000000 0.549650 0.000000 0.922678
[CMYK]
--
Martin Orpen
Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 15:57:15 +0200
From: Graeme Gill <email@hidden>
To: "email@hidden >> ColorSync"
<email@hidden>
Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Martin Orpen wrote:
> Yellow in separations with increased K generation :)
Why ?
The nature of the device response is that you can either have lots of yellow or
you can have the result being neutral.
Take your pick.
i.e. the amount of yellow is correct to reproduce the desired color.
[ Perceptual response also depends to a degree on the source profile used. ]
Cheers,
Graeme Gill.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 15:35:29 +0100
From: Martin Orpen <email@hidden>
To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List"
<email@hidden>
Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> On 9 Sep 2017, at 14:57, Graeme Gill <email@hidden> wrote:
>
> Martin Orpen wrote:
>
>> Yellow in separations with increased K generation :)
>
> Why ?
>
> The nature of the device response is that you can either have lots of
> yellow or you can have the result being neutral.
>
> Take your pick.
>
> i.e. the amount of yellow is correct to reproduce the desired color.
In print, the result doesn’t look neutral, or natural.
If you make a high GCR custom profile from FOGRA52 and proof or print the
results to compare them to images separate using PSO Uncoated v2 they do not
match and will not get approved by a client.
They are too blue.
High GCR profiles using the FOGRA47 data work better than those made from 52.
If the device demanded blue blacks, why doesn’t the ECI profile generate them?
--
Martin Orpen
Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 14:52:18 +0000
From: Dan Bergstrom <email@hidden>
To: Martin Orpen <email@hidden>
Cc: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List"
<email@hidden>
Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Yeah and low TAC will look thin (weak). Also you want each channel to have good
shape.
--
Dan Bergstrom | Color Technology and Quality | PRIMARY COLOR ORANGE COUNTY
http://www.primarycolor.com | T 949 660 7080 C 949 616 4986
> On Sep 9, 2017, at 7:35 AM, Martin Orpen <email@hidden> wrote:
>
>
>> On 9 Sep 2017, at 14:57, Graeme Gill <email@hidden> wrote:
>>
>> Martin Orpen wrote:
>>
>>> Yellow in separations with increased K generation :)
>>
>> Why ?
>>
>> The nature of the device response is that you can either
>> have lots of yellow or you can have the result being neutral.
>>
>> Take your pick.
>>
>> i.e. the amount of yellow is correct to reproduce the desired color.
>
>
>
> In print, the result doesn’t look neutral, or natural.
>
> If you make a high GCR custom profile from FOGRA52 and proof or print the
> results to compare them to images separate using PSO Uncoated v2 they do not
> match and will not get approved by a client.
>
> They are too blue.
>
> High GCR profiles using the FOGRA47 data work better than those made from 52.
>
> If the device demanded blue blacks, why doesn’t the ECI profile generate them?
>
> --
> Martin Orpen
> Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
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